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vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Is this a publicly released picture or did you get it from some inside baseball?

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vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
To be clear, I wasn't asking because I thought you were in the wrong. I know you know what's kosher and what isn't. Just didn't want to share with my co-workers without having a better idea of the source.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
I'm not a ship dude but from what I've heard from my friends who are, and what I've seen in my current job, Hawaii is basically cancer for ships. Obviously a lot of strategic importance in having ships based there but it seems like a drat poo poo show.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Pretty sure -1 has precisely nothing to do with it. 2 is pretty much the right explanation.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

The Valley Stared posted:

LORs stay with you, but depending on when you get it, it can vary as to how it will impact your career. Generally, don't expect to get much further though.

As for the recent report from the Master of the Crystal: I do agree that the comment of "We flashed our lights" seems really strange just from a Rules of the Road perspective. I've done 5 short before and man does it get everyone's attention. Everyone in the area just slows down and looks to see what they have going on around them. It's way safer than flashing your light. I have no other comments though on it.

As I said before, the investigations have started, so I can't talk about our watch rotations or what manning we had at the time. But being on a Destroyer for my first ship as well, it really varied as to what watches we had stood up. My deployment CO always had Department heads stand TAO and we were always on 5 hour watch rotations. On deployment we did circadian, but it was implemented terribly and we rotated every week. Because CLEARLY that is how the human body works.

With my last CO on USS Last Boat unless we were doing major exercises, it was 1st Tour CICWOs standing the watch with CSCs, Surfaces, and a few others (usually OSs). But rarely Air or anything like that. We maybe had one more bridge officer, a JOOW, but I can't even say that we always had that.

Circadian is great but changing it every week pretty much defeats the purpose of it.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Happy 4th from the throbbing tip of the spear.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Geizkragen posted:

Not in aviation at the moment. They shuffle you from painful URL job to URL job (all no flying) until you tap out. I'm coasting on prior time to hit twenty before my first O-5 look (assuming everybody doesn't bail to the airlines and bump me up early as gently caress).

You can get flying jobs, I'm proof of that. But mostly you are correct, I got lucky. TErminal O-4 ain't so bad though.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

maffew buildings posted:

Gents, someone here has probably dealt with this. I'm being sent TAD for two weeks out of state, I live in the BEQ. I do not recieve BAS, should I have BAS activated, is there some kind of missed meals provision? I know the standard is "gently caress you" and "that's what per diem is for" but gently caress that, there has to be something in black and white addressing how not to get further hosed monetarily.

Yes you should get BAS for the time you are TAD, if I properly understand what I just read in the DoD Financial Management regulations. And hey, I have a Financial Management subspecialty code so I must be right!

e: I keep reading this and I'm not sure if I'm right or not. Maybe DustyNuts will show up with the right answer.

e2: After talking to my LPO I'm reasonably confident I am correct.

vulturesrow fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 7, 2017

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
I am currently experiencing what is easily the worst port call I've had in my almost 20 years. If you're ever told you are going to India, just go ahead and lower your expectations, especially if you are on a carrier (and thus have to anchor out).

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
In terms of sheer volume of bad things happening, absolutely. I can't say there is any one event that can top that in of itself though.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

CMD598 posted:

Didn't even get off until I had slg the last day.

I blame 3/4 of it on the ship.

Didn't realize you were out here. This happens pretty much every time we bring a strike group to India so I can't fault the ship too much. Doesn't make it suck any less. I have at least one Sailor who didn't make it off either.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

CMD598 posted:

Given its showing so far, it's just too unsurprising for me to not assume it played a part.

GW/Reagan/CVW5 may have just set a high bar for me though.

Nearly all the issues were caused by one of two things: Indians not having services in place when we arrived, and having to anchor so far offshore (in waters that are known to be rough, combined with some intermittently sketchy weather). The ship has no control over any of that. Also, you really can't compare FDNF anything to stateside. Completely different OPTEMPO and way of doing business. Also don't forget you are on the oldest aircraft carrier in the entire Navy. I'm down for being critical where it's warranted but it really isn't in this case.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

orange juche posted:

Wait, you went from oldest ship in the navy to the oldest ship in the navy? Wow you got hosed.

You were on Enterprise before she got decommissioned or was I thinking of another noble? You all look the same you know?

My first deployment was on the JFK. I've also cruised on GW and Stennis. Never the Enterprise though. JFK was pretty fuggin' old and not a nuke.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Anita Dickinme posted:

I definitely lost some hearing running holdback on those F35s for a month straight back in August. Hook me up with them bluetooth hearing aids. :pray:

They didn't give you special ear pro for that?

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
I know that was a dumb question. FWIW developing new ear pro for flight deck personnel and the LSOs was supposed to happen. But I guess box of earplugs it is!

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
THey tell me I need to rebaseline my audiogram. I have no idea wtf that means other than it sounds like they are trying to cheat me out disability. Someone please explain.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Vriess definitely wins the battle of worst India visit. I guess maybe we did learn a few things from that experience. I know they treated the water onboard and to my knowledge the cases of GE are limited to those who did dumb things like drink water in town. We only had one night where Sailors were forced to sleep on the pier. The real kick in the balls was when we dropped anchor on day 1 and then realized we didn't have a single service ready (thanks India!) whereupon we weighed anchor and drove further out to get away from the shitwater.

His description of the place is highly accurate though. The first night I went out I saw a dude sleeping naked on the sidewalk. The only place I've seen that had more out and out poverty was Djibouti. The Indian officers I met all pretty much told me in their polite Indian way that they thought Chennai sucked as well.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
I'm an aviator and I would take orders to a USNS ship in a heartbeat. That's all you need to now.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

LordNad posted:

This man does not speak for VP aviation.

Nor would I want to.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Yes ignore all the ports that aren't India and doing actual fun flying so you can brag about getting per diem while you deploy.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Geizkragen posted:

All this SWO bonus talk just made something apparent to me: for all the poo poo talking about swo-life, it might suck more to be an aviator now.

I don't know poo poo about the non VFA world, but the strike aviation Navy is paying people an extra $150k+ to be fighter pilots and people are still saying nope. We haven't had enough DHs two years running now.

I don't think it sucks more. I think whats driving it is the much lower O4 selection rates combined with the borderline insane rate at which airlines are hiring right now. If those two things weren't a thing, I think VFA aviators would find their lives much more palatable.

There is one thing on which SWOS have an advantage on in the detailing of officers and that is the fact that woe unto any aviator that steps as much as a toe off "the path." I did and and it screwed me. SWOs don't seem to be nearly as rigid about what you do on your shore tour as long you don't completely fong it away. Granted their career timing is slightly different than ours since we spend a 2-3 years getting trained before we set foot in a fleet squadron and that does matter.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

ManMythLegend posted:

Yep, this checks out. It's good to see the LCS program hasn't changed.

That all said, your initial point about keeping your options open is true. You may hate everything second of it, but your options are exponentially better if you have it before you finish your DIVO tours. Unless you are like 110% convinced you are getting out you should be spending your time on it just in case. You'd be surprised how quickly plans change during your shore tour.

Seconding all this. Not a SWO but its good general advice. Leave yourself as many options as possible. Futureproofing yourself makes a lot of sense.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

FrozenVent posted:

Why the heck is the navy having the same people stand OOW/OOD and EOW?

In the commercial world, those are two completely different career tracks, with two (almost) completely different four year teaching curriculum and certification requirements. Also the engineering folks stop sailing after four years and make fat stacks ashore :iiam:

Because generally speaking they want the officers to be generalists not specialists. Its a redundancy thing.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Coincidentally I just finished reading "No Higher Honor" which if you don't know is the story of the Samuel B. Roberts mine strike in the Persian Gulf. The LoD report really reminds me of the story of the DC efforts on that ship. Both teams saved a situation that was very much in doubt. You done good. I know it sucks to lose shipmates, I've lost my fair share along the way. But you certainly have nothing to hang your head over.

And don't worry about the dick thing, eventually we'll get around to making fun of you for being a girl ;) We've had lady posters in the past, its seriously no big deal. This is a pretty chill group.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

McNally posted:

I wonder if that admiral wants to change his answer.

Nah standard play here is to double down on your previous answer. Oh, I'm sure they'll mandate an "operational pause" or other such nonsense. But they won't admit there are serious, systemic issues in the surface navy.

vulturesrow fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 21, 2017

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

ManMythLegend posted:

Yeah, I think that DESRON 15 is going to pay for this one too.

Agreed.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

ManMythLegend posted:

Being a sitting C7F CO during the poo poo show that has been 2017 has been a very interesting perspective. Granted I'm not in the big boys club in Yokosuka, but I've got my sources and methods. I've got my own view and opinions on that root cause of this rash of tragedies is, but I'll wait until I'm past and opening on this tour and the dust has settled on these investigations before I open up about it. That said, I don't think OPTEMPO is really as big a factor as you guys are thinking.

All friendly aviator vs SWO joking aside, I think this is a sign of SWO culture catching up with itself combined with the onerous demands placed on a ship's crew from above that have nothing to do with getting better at driving or fighting a ship. I think the other issue is the is so little time is given to ships between deployments to actually just go out and train. In this respect I sort of agree with you in that its not an OPTEMPO issue really because as an FDNF you are still out there doing the the thing and if you are doing the thing, you should get more proficient at it in theory.

Aviation had its own issues in this regard which was the genesis of the NATOPS program followed by CRM (ORM for aviators). We were crashing the poo poo out of airplanes until we got serious about standardization and safety and the class A mishap rates plummeted within a relatively short amount of time.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

vulturesrow posted:

Nah standard play here is to double down on your previous answer. Oh, I'm sure they'll mandate an "operational pause" or other such nonsense. But they won't admit there are serious, systemic issues in the surface navy.

Nailed it. :smugdog:

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

ManMythLegend posted:

From what can see coming down the pike I wouldn't be so fast to say the won't be some major changes to the SWO community. Stand by for heavy rolls I think. I'm not sure if it will be enough to address all of the issues though.

Yeah I was more referring to the operational pause piece, which really wasn't that hard of a prediction tbh. I hope you are right because I want it to be better for all my SWO buddies, especially the ones that are trying to make things better, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

M_Gargantua posted:

My suggestion. Grab a bunch of submarine O-3 who have no preconceptions about what surface life is supposed to be like, have them spend a week on a ship, observing watchstanding and auditing maintenance & paperwork, and write up reports on what they saw. That outside persepextive will notice some critical flaws. I'd guarantee it. Identify those flaws then a few months later come back and use the same system to go shop by ship and retrain and audit.

Signs of issues:

"That wouldn't work because subs aren't swos"
"That only works for submarines because they have small crew sizes"
"I don't want to have ORSE equivalents on my ship that's too much work"

Id almost rather leave the SWO Navy the way it is rather than turn them into a bunch of submariners.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Boon posted:

[Citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Mr. Nice! posted:

Why is it crazy? AIS is cool and all but it isn't everything. No vessel is losing track of a warship just because they aren't broadcasting AIS. There are armed gunners to deal with suicide boats. Anyone driving a ship around them in the strait shouldn't be paying attention to AIS over looking at the ships on the water anyways.

Insane might be a little hyperbolic but he has a point. Why not broadcast your AIS in that scenario? You literally lose nothing by broadcasting AIS in a strait transit.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

buttplug posted:

False. Depending on the AOR, ships *do* broadcast AIS, especially when under restricted maneuvering. When I was in FDNF we'd flip it on when entering TSS or entering a foreign port.

Yeah this was already nitpicked to death.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

Stultus Maximus posted:

Harbor pilots always dock warships and control the tugs, therefore no naval officer ever gets practice doing it alone.

My buddies that did frigate tours said they docked alongside without tugs. Granted, it's a frigate but still.

Also, speaking of frigates, a tiny bit of inside baseball I got today would seem to indicate that reactivating some frigates is all but a done deal.

Also, maybe its just me but it seems like some of our SWO brethren are being a little too defensive about perfectly legitimate points that Frozen Vent is making...

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

PneumonicBook posted:

loving lol. Do they plan on modernizing them at all or are we sending out some more uyk-7/43 ships? And who's manning them?

I don't know the answers to those questions. That all said, I'd like to ride one and I'm an Air Wing guy. All my SWO buddies that did frigate time loved it though.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

FrozenVent posted:

Had the rudder and it's supporting arrangement been properly designed?
Properly manufactured?
Properly installed?
Inspected?
Maintained?
Was the steering gear being operated according to the manufacturer's specifications? Were those correct? Was the rudder matched to the steering gear (granted that would be a design flaw...)
Was the steering / helm being operated within specs?

Etc etc. Parts don't just fall off million dollar machines, especially not essential parts like a rudder. You can't just go :shobon: "those things happen!"

There's no such thing as an unavoidable accident in the civilian world, I'm not sure why their would be in the navy. I'm not saying someone should be sacked, but if the navy approaches things by the standard that "well some accidents will occur, NBD", there's your problem.


The STCW / MLC standard for merchant mariners is no more than 14 hours of work in any 24 hours, and at least 77 hours of rest a week, with no more than two periods of rest a day, one of which has to be more than six continuous hours. Emergencies excepted, but drills count. Back in my days (:corsair:) we capped out at 16 hours a day.

For some reason this standard which applies to cargo ships flagged in landlocked countries and manned by third world crews living in near slavery absolutely cannot be implemented aboard American ships with 10 times the crew complement :shobon:

Dude, first off let me tell you that I do appreciate your perspective and I think you've raised some good points in this discussion. And I have been beating the drum about sleep deprivation in the Surface Community for a while now but unfortunately my drum is not very big. THAT all said, a merchant ship is not a loving warship. Do I think that the surface Navy could stand to adopt some best practices from civilian maritime world, absolutely. But there is a lot more going on a warship than on a merchant. That doesn't excuse the sleep deprivation problems at all. But its sort of disingenuous to go "oh merchant ships can do it, why cant the US Navy?"

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

The Valley Stared posted:

Destroyers have a lot of redundancies for steering, but it comes down to if the systems up and were the right people in the right spaces to make use of the redundancies. Right now we don't know, and we probably won't for a while.

The fact that they still haven't found all the sailors is terrible. The puncture is deep, but does that mean that sailors were sucked out? Is the damage so bad that they still haven't been able to get enough steel out of the way to find more in the ship? We on the FITZ at least had the closure of finding them all within 28 hours or so of our collision.

Until the investigation is released, I still really can't speak about the circumstances regarding our collision. Obviously sleep is a huge factor, and had the 17th been a normal day, I would have been getting about 5 hours of sleep that day before having to get up, walk spaces for inspection, do work, and then go on watch.

There's been a lot regarding SWO culture lately, especially concerning sleep and sleep deprivation. The really funny thing? The BRM brief that the higher ups felt we needed to have yesterday? Included an entire section about how 19 hours of wakefulness is the equivalent of a .08 blood alcohol level. Yet, it's still a huge factor in how we as SWOs live our lives.

On my first deployment, my ship did do circadian rhythm. Great right? Except we rotated every week, so there there literally weeks were I would get less than 4 hours of sleep at a shot. I remember telling a DH that I was getting 6 hours of sleep. 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 between my watch. My XO did try to say that that was the worst thing we could do, but the CO wouldn't hear it.

Also ,I was miss spelling a name. It's Rear Admiral Williams. I think he's a little mad at me. I was very angry when I asked my question yesterday. Much more chill today after talking with my Top Snipe.

NPS has an entire website devoted to circadian based watch rotations. One thing it says is that 5 and dimes are the absolute worst watch rotation and that if you are going to do circadian you have to commit to it fully. It also says you should not rotate often. Your body needs time to acclimate to the cycle. Changing the rotation every week defeats the whole purpose of doing a circadian watch rotation.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

LordNad posted:

Jesus christ how bad is your maintenance when 3/4 (71!) of your jets aren't "airworthy"

Old airplanes, flown constantly, contract maintenance not funded to a proper number of maintainers...

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

LordNad posted:

Ah I see the problem now

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here?

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vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.

LordNad posted:

Exactly what babyeatingpsychopath said. P-3s are older and flown constantly. Hell we had a wing structural problem fleet wide for awhile. Underfunded and contract maintenance though? That explains it.

I think you are underestimating both how often these aircraft are flown and the type of flying. That leads to a much tougher maintenance problem. IT seems as if you are trying to handwave away the signficance of those factors. Also the number you cited wasn't just down aircraft, they didn't have enough pilots either.


So you've never been in a situation where 1/3-1/2 of a P3 squadron's complement was down for maintenance?

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