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if you die in morocco you die in real life
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Apr 22, 2018 20:34
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this cliffhanger is very effective
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May 27, 2018 05:28
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i'm guessing the invasion of africa will be worth it in the next game, we bled the moroccans until they lost america and surely we've weakened them in india even though the event didn't fire. that could possibly keep them from just UKing it up for a century and being an unassailable monster that hates us right next door (i will admit that the UK did kinda lose america irl, so there's that) i'm assuming that even if we get embarrassed for the rest of this war we've at least kept it from being an existential crisis for us. maybe i shouldn't assume that? we'll find out soon
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May 28, 2018 00:32
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we couldn't get cartagena back from morocco though, could we? they might get something off us for that in the congress of wherever i think the out-of-game consequences of invading morocco are going to outweigh what we lost in the game, and even in the game i bet their invasions of andalusia would've been a lot stronger if they hadn't had to win a war in morocco, so we might've saved ourselves much worse fates than worrying about the bit they have by losing that army in morocco vv yeah i'm assuming we'll be peaced out with them for the rest of this war, so the next game will start with them holding a bit of europe. unless we can negotiate it away from them oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 01:33 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 01:29
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joining the Bandwagon, I think an actual person living a solid 80 year life to this point would have had a life experience rooted in the fact that Monarchy was threatened with destruction but came out on top of the bloodiest known wars in history, and now they're dictating the terms. nobody has to like it but nobody living through it could've missed the point, I'm thinking we, a kleptocratic fake republic, allied with a revolutionary empire to attack our shared enemy of Monarchy. we failed and turned coat at about the last possible moment to rescue our prospects. our kleptocratic fake republic just went from least bad option to complete non option, in my opinion. moving toward a constitutional Monarchy might actually be a faster track to a worthwhile republic than letting the majlis have their medieval way. maybe having a king to keep them busy will let the real citizens of andalus get power faster. I think the B dynasty is a better gamble than the A one edit also I like that you're using the vagaries of first past the post elections to gently caress with us but I suspect the jizrunids won't have the spoiler vote capacity you'd need. but it would be funny if a plurality hosed everything up. since, you know, that happens oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 00:21
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Hashim posted:- A couple football events once 1900 hits? this is interesting to me. obviously we don't need to overthink this, but we might as well so i get the sense that the basic framework of modern team sports was created in the boys' schools of victorian society, when Muscular Christianity became a thing and the ancient art of kids coming up with a game got coopted by adults, placed inside chalk lines, and subordinated to the rules of an adult authority figure who gets to run around and throw people out of the game and stuff. that might as well happen in this 19th century too, and it might as well become a focus for nationalism, regionalism, ideology, petty criminal activity, etc. i wonder how the world pattern of sports would be different without the dominance of england, though? football became the world's biggest sport because england was sending armies and merchants everywhere, who between them founded clubs in barcelona, buenos aires, milan, tokyo, and more, hence english flags on crests and english words in names (i believe AC Milan is literally named Milan, not Milano, that's a relatively subtle one from the anglophone perspective). the only competing sphere in real world history was the region where people played the games that Americans played, and that only in the pacific and caribbean - we even got shut out of most of South America. i think you can especially see this in samoa, where the island ruled by europeans in the 19th century sends athletes west to play rugby and the island ruled then and now by americans sends athletes east to play american football iirc there's special sports from Ireland and Canada, you can find things like kabbadi from other cultures, but it seems like it's basically US and UK sports that took over the world in the 19th century. you get the slightest of hints of a sort of third sub-sphere in real life where Australian football is the national sport of Niue, but we live in a bipolar sports world - what if it was multipolar? our world could be multipolar on this note, especially with ibriz being as powerful as they are maybe a good model would be how Australia and Ireland glued their local forms of football together in a bastardized 'international' form that ultimately just turned into huge fights you can watch on youtube, but on a global scale and with more than two sports bunched together? i don't think it makes any actual difference for the game or the thread, so i'll leave it at that edit: a couple things are wrong here i know, i think it's nauru not niue and it's called international rules, i'm curious if i'm wrong in my basic thesis tho oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 10, 2018 |
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Jun 10, 2018 23:08
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on a more 'mattering at all' note, where is slavery legal? did morocco's colonies keep slavery when they revolted? has ibriz freed everybody down to the isthmus of panama? who owned the caribbean again? might be some event chains to be written there. do any major naval powers have positions on slavery, like the UK did irl? will morocco fight to keep the high seas open for the free trade of human livestock? edit gently caress in-game pixelmorocco oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jun 10, 2018 |
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Jun 10, 2018 23:18
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this is an atlantic slave trade where benin has a few colonies in south america, right? so that's a bit interesting. what if some anti-slave trade blockade is broken by both the buyer and the seller? a modernized west african empire that's spent the last few hundred years exporting a significant fraction of their population for cash might have some ahistorical influence on the trajectory of slavery edit: unless we're figuring that the counterclockwise migration of slave sourcing in real history moved out of west africa more quickly than historically since it would've needed to find softer targets, on toward kongo and then around the horn, and/or went through the arab world in a way that wasn't a feature of real life, and benin is just buying slaves from south of their territory for their new world colonies like any civilized nation would also a unified west african empire would be pretty drat good at football just sayin a unified west african empire with some brazilian colonies no less editedit: also i figure the egyptian form of slavery could be generalized better under the smolensk/russia serfdom model than lumping them in with atlantic slave trade nations. just a guess that we're basically talking about the fellahin who've always been working that soil, not any particular imports oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jun 11, 2018 |
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Jun 11, 2018 02:10
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so ibriz is a revolutionary republic that's majority muslim in a world where muslims and christians have participated in some kind of ecumene, is the best word i can think of, the 'known world' - in this timeline, the ancient ecumene of pre-roman times remained intact through the religious revolutions of both the first and second millennia CE, is kinda my thesis along with reflecting on how different that is from our world. it may even have effects on the degree to which ancient forms of prejudice were transformed into the modern forms we recognize as racism, and i don't even know which way that would cut, but i'll leave that alone for now we can see it in interfaith alliances an order of magnitude more common and consequential than the france-ottoman alliance of the real world in the same time period, and i bet commercial contacts throughout the mediterranean are an order of magnitude stronger than what venice, genoa, and such were able to keep going in the real early modern era - in real life Muslims had a very strong presence in the mediterranean in this period and here i think they'd indisputably have had the upper hand for centuries** so when the Revolution, liberty, equality, brotherhood style, hits an ecumene that's been intact for more than 2000 years but has been plagued by a binary religious divide for the last 800 or so, perhaps one of the first targets of these new ideals is the divide between muslim and christian? editeditedit: and when the post-Revolution hit wasn't Tirruni fighting off everything from the Sahara to Siberia with a multifaith empire? what was the composition of his ruling class, officer corps and soldiers, anyway? also maybe i'm misremembering crucial stuff perhaps even if that does remain a flashpoint, possibly heavily affecting events in ibriz and other american nations* we need to consider it as less of an us vs them issue than it historically and unconsciously is for the western majority that's reading and typing itt, just because we didn't grow up in a world where Christendom, if it ever existed, was always intimately connected to the Dar al-Islam or whatever the Muslim version of 'Christendom' is editeditedit not that that would stop a civil war or other such bloodshed, just saying maybe muslim vs christian is merely one of many cultural divides that can start wars among cultural equals, i guess *btw maybe send a shitload of settlers to brazil in this timeline from africa (free ones) as well as europe and the muslim world, we seem to have more of a thriving south atlantic system than in the real world - actually in general maybe we should have the muslim world emigrate to the new world at rates equivalent to the historical/base game european emigration rate, considering all of the above and the obvious power of Muslim navies and colonial empires **speaking of that, in real life muslim slavers managed to drag off a fairly significant amount of europeans, maybe an order of magnitude or two less than the atlantic slave trade was moving, right? in this history would there be a ton of european slaves working the field in post-moroccan slave states? maybe that could be another effect/cause of benin doing well - the most productive sources for the slave trade moved both to their south and to their north. this also connects to the comment about not knowing which way this perpetuated ecumene i'm proposing cuts with regard to how much the ancient patterns of prejudice were changed into the modern era oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 06:16
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if i ever get to manipulate an alien society by appearing in front of their prehistoric ancestors, pretending to be god, and telling them things to believe, i'm definitely going with Tolerance Wolf i forget the actual significance/meaning/anything at all of Tolerance Wolf but that only lends more urgency to my desire
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Jun 14, 2018 01:56
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i feel like the moroccan position is way more dangerous than the UK's irl. they could end up on the wrong side of a war over slavery, and as has been noted often it seems like they should be really close to losing control over their current indian territories, rather than being in a position to expand in the near future. and then they also have a 1800-1820ish era spain style problem in the new world to deal with on top of that - as well as having been heavily damaged on the home front in the not-napoleonic war in a way the UK never was close to experiencing also if i'm reading the colors right they seem to be taking over indonesia, despite some valiant random colonization by Pali or something. if someone had gotten both india and indonesia in real life they would've been pretty powerful i think morocco just seems like they might not have the resources to commit to all of those fronts, or even most of them. still extremely dangerous, but vulnerable when distracted - and they should still have the capacity to rise from it all as a proper neo-UK if they get lucky or whatever, they're in a better position than most also are north african provinces just way wealthier than in the base game? how about the muslim heartland, it did better in this timeline, right? did they ever get ripped apart by steppe invaders like irl? and are immigrants to the new world gonna be coming from places like baghdad? i'll find out soon enough edit: it'd be cool if you rigged it so south america got a larger proportion of immigrants vis a vis north america than historic. it'd just be fun to see how a different balance would turn out. ibriz will be a vacuum for muslim emigrants but the south american folks should get a larger share than they did in real life, perhaps oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 07:05
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im on the 86th minute of the morocco game right now and i just got spoiled about the ending lol its ok i'm not really watching very hard edit: um, maybe content: perhaps the south american muslim states have big decisions regarding slavery that align them into blocs, and one of the pluses the emancipationists get is boosted immigration? how well does slavery do in this video game, in general? does it hit a wall economically at some point or do the pops' Consciousness or whatever it's called just keep going up? or does slavery have the potential to last throughout the game? -- wow i kinda feel bad for irlmorocco. do football knowers think #77 or w/e there would've tapped it in if that defender hadn't made a play on it? oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 03:37
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i think that if South America's major countries don't unify, they could become a proxy battleground between ibriz and Morocco. seems like we're setting up for some slavery war fun, and that could be a battleground. South America might have a more central role in geopolitics than it did irl also iirc Mexican silver coins were the base denomination of the whole Pacific rim trade system in this time period, another thing ibriz has in its back pocket I guess
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Jun 17, 2018 20:11
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also I vaguely mentioned it before but is there anything special going on in Indonesia? it seems, from my vague memory of a map that was posted, like Morocco is conquering east to west from their base in Australia, but at least one native nation also had colonies there. will Morocco just slowly mop that up, or are we thinking of any events there? I feel like just through the historical oddity of being the colonial subject of a country that was basically declared neutral by the great world powers for like a century plus, Indonesia gets very little notice in this period. it's a diverse, extremely populous place, but sadly I can't pretend to know enough about it to offer ideas, aside from generically strengthening the locals and/or wrapping those territories up in decisions that come about due to wars won or lost elsewhere. it would be interesting to me if Java, which has a larger population than Honshu in Japan iirc, ended up becoming powerful or at least a contested territory in this time period
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Jun 17, 2018 20:48
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ima go Moderate and also hope the berber raj isnt as powerful as they look. south africa with slaves is also rather depressing
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Jul 1, 2018 02:26
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mo der a tion clap clap clap-clap-clap
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Jul 6, 2018 08:03
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ive never seen this smiley before but its definitely either evocative of the ideals of moderation or bitterly owning me or both
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Jul 7, 2018 00:34
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i wonder how practices of slavery east and west of the Atlantic differ/don't? slavery in the mediterranean, mostly of christians by muslims iirc and sometimes raiding as far as ireland or maybe it was iceland i read about, in about the same time period... but the scale and economic deployment of the africa->western hemisphere slave trade seem to have been a different story entirely i get the impression most of slave america depended on constant imports due to mortality and it was only like virginia and north carolina on the far north that ended up profiting more by raising and selling slaves like any other livestock. that movement of human livestock from the east to places like mississippi, missouri, texas, etc. was part of the opening of the west edit: not to exonerate US slaveholders in any way other than circumstance - in parts of the USA where man-killing crops were grown, like jute and indigo in coastal carolina and sugar in i think louisiana, the same murderous practices were used that any western hemisphere slave owner in a similar situation would've employed but people don't generally want to think too much about the flourishing and integral slave economy that made america what it is today but back to my point - i wonder if moroccans have different policies for their trans- and cis-Atlantic slaves (or even ethnic/religious groups, although maybe we can let a few opportunities for genocide slide ya kno) edit: on a less annoying note, the details of the conversion to vicky are really interesting and i'm enjoying hyperanalyzing them. that's all this is 
oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 02:04
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Jack2142 posted:I thought Indigo was the less lovely crop to harvest than Sugar based off reading on Haiti, but it being only marginally less deadly wouldn't surprise me either given how lovely Haiti was. my knowledge is mostly from an undergrad class many many many years ago. it was a good class, good reading list and professor. but I don't actually know anything per se nevertheless, another sociopolitical factor in the Western hemisphere will be the balance between the I think heavily slave operated northeast of Brazil, the oldest settled area, and the southeast of Rio and Sao Paulo. I think there's been a lot of internal migration from the former to the latter in recent generations if the the new government is slaveholding, power might gravitate to the north, or vice versa. just a thought of sorts. it's a fun set of hypotheticals
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Jul 7, 2018 02:58
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yay we were the ones who figured out natural selection
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Jul 28, 2018 19:56
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semi-useless Moderate vote
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Jul 30, 2018 20:32
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RestRoomLiterature- posted:We pay out workers in the colonies. Morocco enslaves theirs. It is our morale obligation to defeat them and strip them of their possessions although the currency in which we pay them often tends to be human hands the best part is even after we go red, socialist theories of the economic value of labor could be taken a bit too literally and the practice of chopping off the means of production and using them as currency could continue. this is a weird paragraph edit: may as well vote for the Socialists while I'm at it
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Aug 14, 2018 22:09
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russia is terrifying, they just destroyed germany and reconquered france and britain. that'll be fun in the future now we can immediately become hardcore socialists and break into a civil war with the massive conservative power base we've groomed over the last few decades. i wonder how we can avoid shattering our united iberia within years of its creation - can we perform a, like, gradual climb-down? ending the almoravid slave empire like that is cool does the berber union still do slavery?by the way the celts are still our allies if i'm reading it right, but do they hate us as much as they should? and do the south germans? edit: did ibriz ever really do anything? oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 17:46
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oh also, not nitpicking, just curious about the in-game peace treaty:Hashim posted:The Almoravid Sultan would not suffer another sacking, however, and immediately surrendered in return for amnesty. He dispatched diplomats to a meeting with the Andalusi at the neutral city of Narbuna, where he finally agreed to relinquish Qartayannat, the initial wargoal. Five years of war had seen Andalusi demands skyrocket, however, and the Sultan was further forced to pay reparations, surrender Malta to Palermo, and cede a small stretch of land in east Africa to the Andalusi. does kilwa+malta cost less war score or whatever to get than tangier/ceuta, or did you consciously not to take land on the other side of the strait? how did the treaty negotiations go in terms of in-game mechanics as the war progressed? and then you glued the slavery policy change on via event? (also is 'moroccan sicily' one of those weird Victoria-isms where malta is part of the same state as sicily or something?)
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Aug 18, 2018 19:25
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so warscore, infamy and the explicit goals that were laid out in the last choice which i should've remembered. thanks for the answers we might have a tough time looking for allies but i guess germany and italy are still non-unified so maybe europe will bother each other over that and we can be friends with whoever isn't friends with frangland if we could take more of bengal without annoying anyone important who isn't on a truce timer, that might be a good use of time in the near term
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Aug 18, 2018 19:43
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Zikan posted:thank you for this delicious poison pill so voting socialist isn't a complete no brainer yeah i think this plus the threat of reactionary revolt and such might make a good argument for voting moderate, it's too early to turtle up and give the world the finger while passing reforms that many powerful countries and lots of our citizens won't like. that's playing with fire, and i think the history of al-andalus suggests that when we play with fire we burn down our entire peninsula bottom line is, our past votes for conservatives and such got us the territory we wanted, but those votes still have consequences in-game. even if hashim can navigate an instantaneous 180-degree political reorientation in-game, which i imagine he could, i don't think he'd do it in this LP, he certainly hasn't done it thus far. there are powerful people in al-andalus who have been building careers, families, and ideologies under reactionary governments for generations, and they're probably at the height of their prestige right now. it might take a few decades to rein all that in safely while dealing with the foreign political climate
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Aug 18, 2018 20:43
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on a random note, i was curious about the irl narbuna (Narbonne) and apparently they were a big port city until the 1300's, when a dam the Romans had built 1000 years before finally blew out, the river and the coastline silted up, and the town suddenly lost its commercial reaison d'etre. they had to stop building a cathedral halfway through: i'd like to imagine that in this world tirruni or someone built half a mosque right up next to it i need to reread the LP, i guess, but i feel like this stretch of coast has been at the center of a weird bi-religious western Mediterranean ecumene that developed instead of what we know as irl Christendom for centuries now, and i wonder if it's got some specific significance to it that barcelona or marseille wouldn't wikipedia told me to attribute the author of this work so i'm totally gonna do it, im a good boy By Benh LIEU SONG - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4325485 here's the link to the 4005x2946 original oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Aug 18, 2018 |
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Aug 18, 2018 21:31
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i still feel fine about voting for that, the presence of a crowned individual doesn't seem to be slowing other better countries down and i bet with all the right-wing voting we've been doing to take the peninsula they would've gotten the king they wanted at some point - at the very latest, just now when we reunified iberia. and i think we saved ourselves a lot of diplomatic trouble but it's hard to prove a counterfactual edit: not only are we the baddies, russia are the good guys
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Aug 19, 2018 18:53
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Moderates Hashim dropped a hint about the imperialists having a power base currently that they'll build on if elected, and the narrative has lots of hints that hardliner conservatives have a lot of power. I vote for a decade of incrementalism to please the narrative gods and lessen the impact of event-driven domestic opposition
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Aug 24, 2018 06:04
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Jack2142 posted:Honestly the 1800's were actually pretty drat successful in rebuking the massive fuckuos in the 1700's I think we were successful at unifying iberia at the explicitly stated cost of creating a huge well armed conservative power base who made our country a nightmarish hellhole for anyone who isn't rich. hashim's consistently given us a bunch of options with pluses and lasting, compounding minuses, and blood for pretty borders and military security was the way we went for literal pixel generations, and we can't just wave the red flag and expect those folks to pixel acquiesce. presumably if we'd tried to solve the domestic problem first instead we'd now be facing heavy roadblocks on the path to solving the military problem, in a mirror image of the current situation, but we'll never know so I think we now face an incredibly dangerous roadblock to our ambitions that we would've resolved more efficiently by using the moderates for a decade, but a combination of people who disagree with me and people who agree and think that sounds rad took us directly full steam ahead toward a brick wall of our own construction. I'm partly interested to see if I'm right or not but either way this LP is super well balanced for an engaging, vaguely realistic ish experience
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Sep 7, 2018 20:24
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it's my opinion, which i refuse to back up with any effort such as re-reading old posts, that outside of game mechanics hashim told us the upside and the downside via flavor text and in-game custom events. in other words, this post...SlothfulCobra posted:All of you voted for decades to not bother with reforms and double down on imperial ambitions. I don't know what made you think you could just act like Al Andalus isn't a state built on mass suffering and at the core of all the world's ills all of a sudden. was most essentially about the things hashim did outside of in-game mechanics, and counter-arguments centering on game mechanics miss the vital point. i think hashim has very specifically set out with a goal of preventing us from having our cake and eating it too. most players would probably satisfy the natural mapgame impulse of taking your cores and coloring the map your color, but we'd also have happy-fun usually ahead-of-their-time progressive domestic policies so we could feel all nice inside. hashim has put teeth where the game didn't and is endeavoring to prevent us from eating the cake we have (what is up with that metaphor anyway, was it originally ironic or something) even if it doesn't line up with what you'd expect - in-game, not from reading hashim's text, events, and party descriptions, which i'm basing all of this on - from pressing the liberal button four times in a row. he's set this up to subvert our intentions, and it's my opinion that we just reached for the cake and he's either gonna slap our wrist or cut our hand off and i think this metapolitics chat is kinda fun but i get why other people might hate it edit: i assume hashim'll update at some point. assuming he does, the worst problem itt atm is that there are too many posts. thread is good oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 8, 2018 |
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Sep 8, 2018 02:47
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Grizzwold posted:I wouldn’t really call wanting to be more progressive than tsarist russia ahead of its time. the degree to which he/the game's denied us our wish to be progressive is pretty extreme, yeah, but i'm trying to describe ordinary paradox game playthroughs there, not this game. so i'm just asserting that most posters here would desire to be ahead of schedule on political/social reforms as they play through victoria 2 i think that desire and the desire to win wars and paint the map your color are the contradictory desires that hashim is making us choose between, is all i'm sayin
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Sep 8, 2018 04:13
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Hashim posted:Sultan Utbah ibn Raed al-Zulfiqar had finally died, passing away after suffering a sudden stroke in the early hours of a bright April morning, whilst wintering in one of his Granada palaces. Utbah’s reign would come under heavy scrutiny in the following years, but historians would ultimately praise his tactful politick on the domestic and foreign fronts, with the Sultan of Al Andalus carefully - and successfully - navigating the Congress of Cádiz, the Springtime of Nations, the Iberian War, the birth of socialism, the Scramble for Africa and the Continental War. After almost sixty years of unbroken rule, Al Andalus emerges as the uncontested world superpower, with its reach stretching across the width of the globe. wow, that was bloody and all but the roll of the dice hit us pretty hard on the sultan's personality too anyway that was great, it all seems to make sense how it's unfolding. for better or for worse  edit: also the moroccans have dreadnoughts. does this game model blockades (this assumes our entire land border is enemy-occupied i guess, and maybe smuggling would keep us alive) oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 19:04
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also russia has control of constantinople, the suez canal, and the bab al-mandab for good matter (although not the entire sea of marmara, i suppose, and maybe not socotra?). that's like peter the great's wet dream edit: our civil war seems like a good opportunity for morocco to gently caress with us, are they still really reactionary? oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 19:13
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so the sultan parties. good for him. who's the leader of the chemical industry in this timeline, do we think? it was around this time that German chemists were inventing heroin and poo poo. maybe the sultan could help our state run industry in that area
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Sep 9, 2018 23:47
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nice, an update! thanks for sticking with this i was kinda hoping this would be a 'y0 paradox hired me' bump tbh
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Nov 15, 2018 21:42
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we should definitely play this era of military history like italy lots of mountaintop battles on sheer rock faces, where ricochets and splintered rock killed everybody who couldn't build a barricade of corpses. we could do that in the pyrenees! choose one spot where we can attack into a massive enemy fort and have like eleven battles there
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Nov 15, 2018 23:46
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would the imperialists do any reforms at all, like for voting? it sorta sounds like the stability of the liberal era inadvertantly prevented reform due to silly game mechanics, but we're not very stable now, are we? would a new liberal regime have a new power to enact reform due to that, and would they use that opportunity if they had it? I'll just vote imperialist tho
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Nov 18, 2018 01:10
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i just flew in from the khedivate, and boy are my arms tired!! because i dont have hands because they were cut off it makes the rest of my arms rather tired when i must fly without hands
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Nov 18, 2018 18:48
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well that's some poo poo. interesting. anything happen in the new world? aside from a ton of andalusi presumably emigrating there
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Nov 23, 2018 03:18
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