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thechosenone posted:I guess this makes me want to ask, what is the failure state of the democratic party's strategy? Since 2010, both 'yes' and 'more'
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Mar 1, 2017 00:24
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I too want idiots running the country. Trump supporter spotted
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Mar 1, 2017 00:24
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, this mostly comes down to issues of perception and messaging, Bernie was gonna have trouble with minority voters even if he didn't make the occasional unforced error because he was an ancient white dude from New England with no name recognition coming down to do a vanity presidential run he didn't think was going anywhere. Those are all still problems that can be fixed though.  Homeless Friend posted:Thank god I live in Cali so I don't have to vote for Booker if it does happen, fuckkkk Massively But again, I don't think he's going to get the presidential nomination, at least as far as things are going right now. I think he'll have a lot of support, and he may run and do not-terribly. But unless he pulls a 180 on Wall Street between now and then, he's going to have trouble.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:25
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like that kind of rhetoric is populist poo poo. Come up with a policy behind it. People don’t give a poo poo about policy They care about ideology
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Mar 1, 2017 00:26
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Majorian posted:I do think a lot of Sanderistas failed to give Clinton the benefit of the doubt on enough things, yes. And some of them did that because they ascribed an unrealistic degree of mendacity and cynicism to Clinton personally. Having a tit-for-tat argument on who was more unfair during the primaries, Clinton or Sanders, doesn't serve the left-of-center/anti-Trump cause, though. By Sanderistas I meant you.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:28
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:People don’t give a poo poo about policy Ehhh...I think it's not even ideology, although it's closer to that. But if it were ideology, they would be consistent about the policies they support (limited government, limited foreign involvement, etc). Republicans really aren't, especially Trump-supporting Republicans. I think the more precise answer is that they care about tribalism.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:29
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I too want idiots running the country. Writing policy /= being smart. The president isn't the head bureaucrat. They don't have time to write policy. The president's job is to lead the country and lead the party. They deliver propaganda and they make decisions.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:29
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Fulchrum posted:By Sanderistas I meant you. Well, if you look at my posts during the campaign, you'll note that I gave Clinton credit when she moved to the left, and took a lot of flack from my fellow Sanderistas when I did so. So...I'm not sure what you're thinking about here. 
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Mar 1, 2017 00:30
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thechosenone posted:So you do not support the establishment wing of the democratic party? I donated to Keith Ellison and signed Bernie's petition
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Mar 1, 2017 00:30
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thechosenone posted:So you do not support the establishment wing of the democratic party? Please tell me about what you perceive the difference between a professional and a member of an establishment wing to be
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Mar 1, 2017 00:30
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The Kingfish posted:Writing policy /= being smart. The president isn't the head bureaucrat. They don't have time to write policy. The president's job is to lead the country and lead the party. They deliver propaganda and they make decisions. They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:31
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I donated to Keith Ellison and signed Bernie's petition But you also post damage control paradoxes about how Perez and Keith are the same in support of the party establishment online. BTW I think you are an ok guy and also a progressive. We have some differences but you aren't a bootlicking freak like effectronica or anything.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:35
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people. , but even so, the President doesn't introduce legislation to Congress (and I know you know that). His or her biggest tool when it comes to domestic policy, by far, is the bully pulpit.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:35
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Majorian posted:Ehhh...I think it's not even ideology, although it's closer to that. But if it were ideology, they would be consistent about the policies they support (limited government, limited foreign involvement, etc). Republicans really aren't, especially Trump-supporting Republicans. I think the more precise answer is that they care about tribalism. I should be more precise. There wasn’t a single coherent message to coming out of the Hillary campaign. Trump had a very clear, simple message for his rust belt voters. Sanders attracted people, not on grounds on being charismatic or because of his policies, but because he was against what the rich were doing to this country. People giving up on Trump voters is a mistake; Not when you’re perfectly capable of attacking him from the left and painting him as an enemy of the working class. Hillary could not adequately criticize the wealthy elite in this country. She was part of them. Trump was loathed by lobbyists, politicians from both parties, Wall St. types alike, and he used that image to make that distinction he needed.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:35
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people. What Would LBJ Do?
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Mar 1, 2017 00:36
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people. Yeah they ideally should. But it doesn't take a simpleton to phrase ideas and the party policy in a way that people can grasp and retain.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:What Would LBJ Do? LBJ had a deep understanding of policy and also politics.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:38
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people. The policy section of Hillary's website is basically the most offensive thing ever, since it precisely detracts from the idea she was in any way capable of forming a coherent message out of it.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:Please tell me about what you perceive the difference between a professional and a member of an establishment wing to be eh, association between bernie vs Hillary, So I guess you could call it as Left wing vs Right wing parts of Democratic party.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:40
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:They need to know how poo poo works and how policy affects people. Since it's always vogue to compare government to business: Think of the President as a contractor. You bring him in, say what you want/need, and he tells you if it can be done, how much it will cost, and how long it will take. He likely can't tell you why the pipe rusted, what kind of snaking will unclog the sink, how deep the trenching for the pipe needs to be, or why the basement floor isn't level. What he can do is effectively appropriate your budget to people the contractor has found dependable who DOES know all that, and can explain to the contractor what needs to be done to fix that, who then has his workersdo such. Likewise, the president doesn't need to have 20 years in accounting, or a decade in city developing, or the ability to disassemble and reassemble an ICBM. What you need from him are: - Can I trust him? - Do I like his ideas? - How genuine is his dedication to my needs? - Does he know people/concepts that will perform a good job? there's nothing here about people being stupid, or hating facts. What is here is that people want a leader who can lead, and more importantly lead them somewhere good. They say "free college!" And you say "hell yeah!", not "but can you tell me right now how to get this past a gridlocked congress convinced that govt debt is bad? What is your immediate strategy for transitioning college funding from the people to the state?". Because if he needs that, if he doesn't know that, he can find someone who does. He finds these reliable experts and form some kind of....cabinet. and in 4 years you decide if you liked their work and want to commision a second term, or if you would rather have someone else.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:44
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:The policy section of Hillary's website is basically the most offensive thing ever, since it precisely detracts from the idea she was in any way capable of forming a coherent message out of it. Its honestly a mess: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
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Mar 1, 2017 00:46
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I mean you can’t just throw policy at the public and demand to them to interpret what that means politically.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:47
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A huge blow to the centrist team of this thread with the loss of noted sane person brainiac 5. My condolences
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Mar 1, 2017 00:58
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:LBJ had a deep understanding of policy and also politics. LBJ had an internal ambition around which he framed all else through a deeply pragmatic lens. LBJ understood whether a policy advanced, or hindered, his achievement of ambition. Who now is the most craven Democrat? What Democrat can listen at a man and make them believe that he has their interest at heart, no matter the idea? What Democrat is strong enough to wipe the scourge of communism from asia? Say what you will about me, I know what it takes to win. Democrats need once more to look at the lessons of history and reach bipartisan compromise in a manner which wins for us. To that end, I propose a two-state solution: Judea and Samarra, with full Congressional representation. If the current electoral college dont win for democrats, expand the gently caress'n college
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Mar 1, 2017 01:01
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LBJ won for a myriad of reasons (he could campaign very effectively, for example), and policy was only one of him. That said, his success was also unique to the times in which he existed. I don’t think he would have won an election against Trump, especially if he were in the middle of defending an unpopular war.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:03
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:LBJ won for a myriad of reasons (he could campaign very effectively, for example), and policy was only one of him. That said, his success was also unique to the times in which he existed. I don’t think he would have won an election against Trump, especially if he were in the middle of defending an unpopular war. Politics manifests as two tools: that of persuasion, and that of coercion. The benefit of a wartime draft is that the tools of coercion are magnified greatly. What better way to coerce a man than send his child to the frontline?
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Mar 1, 2017 01:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:Free healthcare ain't hope, its entitlement. Crowsbeak, when I say that you are entitled to nothing, what do you feel? A majority of Americans sufficient to win the electoral college feel liberated; they feel inspired; they love freedom more than Barack Obama upon having his first slice of custard-covered apple pie since Michelle started the 'FLOTUS Your Moves' healthy lifestyle campaign. The feel so entitled they are making the GOP not want to replace a Obamacare. Promise them better healthcare less beurocracy less dealing with insurance. No more Obamacare website.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:08
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Lets suppose I am a working class man in Michigan. My family is struggling financially and I am economically anxious and I want to see what she will do for me. I go to HRC's website and click "issues" that takes me here: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ I click on the "Economy and jobs" tab and there are literally twenty sub-catagories for me to chose from. These sub-categories are alphabetized. I choose the "An economy that works for everyone" sub-category because that seems like the one most likely to tell me what I want. That takes me here: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/an-economy-that-works-for-everyone/ And this is the first thing I see: HRC posted:The measure of our success will be how much incomes rise for hardworking families. How many children are lifted out of poverty. How many Americans can find good jobs that support a middle class life—and not only that, jobs that provide a sense of dignity and pride. That’s what it means to have an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top. That’s the mission, and I’m asking all of you to join me in it. That doesn't tell me anything, so I scroll down and read on: "HRC posted:Despite the progress we’ve made in coming back from the Great Recession, we face a set of core challenges to building an economy that works for everyone—including a political system that is doing too little to help working Americans, an economic system that encourages too many corporations to favor short-term profits over long-term investments, and outdated workplace policies that aren’t meeting the needs of modern families. Ok now I'm starting to get pissed/bored, because obviously that doesn't mean anything either. I scroll down further: As president, Hillary has a five-point plan to meet these challenges
Each of these bullet points has an accompanying paragraph that finally hints at actual policy.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:09
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Also keep in mind that long before you get to the issues page, you'll see an essay on how Pepe the Frog is an alt-right icon of terror If the site were a person, and you asked it what its opinion on X is, they would preface it with the national threat of a webcomic frog that pees with his pants down So, even if the voter is savvy enough to google
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Mar 1, 2017 01:13
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The Kingfish posted:Lets suppose I am a working class man in Michigan. My family is struggling financially and I am economically anxious and I want to see what she will do for me. I go to HRC's website and click "issues" that takes me here: When you use 23 points to communicate a stance, all ya communicate is nothin. I support an import tarriff and end to NAFTA, and plan to force it through Congress by drafting all the congresscritters' children to be boots on ground in syria unless the bill passes.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:13
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I never thought I would ever be agreeing with MIGF on something welp
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Mar 1, 2017 01:14
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there's only one minority group dems really care about the 1%
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Mar 1, 2017 01:15
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The Kingfish posted:Lets suppose I am a working class man in Michigan. My family is struggling financially and I am economically anxious and I want to see what she will do for me. I go to HRC's website and click "issues" that takes me here: also, nobody gives a poo poo about candidate websites. hell, the only part of the site the candidate concerns themselves with is the "click here" and the "submit"
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Mar 1, 2017 01:15
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did someone ITT literally just suggest unironically that an undecided voter would go to a candidate's website, click around, and start reading up on policy proposals That was thing #28 HRC did wrong all the time last year: always be telling people to go to her website. Nobody does that.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:21
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It was a thought experiment about how even if somebody actually did look at her website, all they would find is an unorganized mess.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:23
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The Kingfish posted:It was a thought experiment about how even if somebody actually did look at her website, all they would find is an unorganized mess. In my defense, a lot of the stuff in your post is very much like some of the stuff which the kind of person who would defend Hillary Clinton's website would say while defending Hillary Clinton's website, ironically enough there are literally twenty sub-categories for you to choose from! How is it not getting through to you??!?
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Mar 1, 2017 01:28
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My Imaginary GF posted:also, nobody gives a poo poo about candidate websites. hell, the only part of the site the candidate concerns themselves with is the "click here" and the "submit" welcome back migf you are so dreamy 
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Mar 1, 2017 01:31
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The Kingfish posted:Its honestly a mess: "You can check out my website", what better campaign message is there? Especially ones where you require voters to navigate carefully written policies because you are unable to articulate them? The Kingfish posted:Lets suppose I am a working class man in Michigan. My family is struggling financially and I am economically anxious and I want to see what she will do for me. I go to HRC's website and click "issues" that takes me here: Lol it's amazing. Seriously man I hope someone who is close to Perez is reading this thread and hires you to help their next campaign.
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Mar 1, 2017 01:32
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Sorry folks.
thechosenone fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Mar 1, 2017 |
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Mar 1, 2017 01:36
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The Kingfish posted:Its honestly a mess: Ugh so loving bad. Why the gently caress is it in alphabetical order?
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Mar 1, 2017 01:44
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