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Condiv posted:just You vote for leftist by instilling them at the state and local levels and primary for leftist candidates. Crowsbeak posted:Hey Stone Cold was suggesting that the land we hold there is illegally held. That Land has been held by Americans for 170 years. Also nearly everyone who lives there (99%) want to stay part of America. Look anyone who suffered from that horrible operation deserves compensation no doubt. But ultimately the land is illegally held. Sure everyone who stays there wants to stay American because that is what they grew up as, but at the very least, our country can start treating them as full-fledged Americans. You are really getting caught up in her comment about Aztlán, which hasn't really been a thing since the Chicano Movement, which was a very different historical context, and one that is very unique in terms of social movements among Mexican-Americans. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:03
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at people saying the party will be easiest to change from the inside. that only works if they follow their own rules and don't just make poo poo up all the time. the dems have shown yet again (under supposedly progressive leadership even!) that they will ignore their own bylaws and charter when necessary to keep the left out of power.
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Condiv posted:Well that and only vote for leftists. Centrists will just use any power you give them to stab leftists in the back. Centrists are wholly untrustworthy and not our allies at all. Only voting for leftists will get you nowhere and fast. If the leftist candidate doesn't make it to the general, then the best thing to do is to agitate for more leftist policy. Not simple throw your hands up and decide you're going to stay at home instead since that sends the entirely wrong message. The DNC are looking for people that are going to be dedicated. Also, I think centrists are perfectly capable of being allies. In many cases, you can learn quite a bit about navigating the political system from them. Sometimes, centrists may even support the same candidate that you are. Brainiac Five posted:Answer the question. Crowsbeak posted:I would never suggest that people who had nothing to do with a conflict 150 years before where everyone who ever fought in such a conflict as well as their children are dead be forced to leave an area. The Nazis in Poland had just arrived. Now answer my question. Or are you now going to just post a word salad insult? This slapfight is pointless, because it is just dumb bickering about a sociopolitical movement that is being taken wildly out of context.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:17
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think he's so much interested in promoting leftism as promoting that leftists not get out and vote against Republicans. But that is a borderline accelerationist message. It would be far easier to push a centrist to change than someone who is right of center. You can even do this while reorganizing candidates to run on the left.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:25
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Condiv posted:if they capitulate i'll vote for them. but they won't. so i won't. You are making assertions about stuff that has not happened yet in the future. You aren't even trying to take advantage of the current rules to gain power. Seriously, there is no answer that is good enough for you other than full leftism now, it seems. And even then your strategy seems to be to stay at home and not vote rather than be engaged for fighting for leftist candidates wherever its possible for them to win. Are you for grassroots activism, or not?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:51
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Majorian posted:I agree 100% with the point about the New Deal and other widespread left-populist bundles of legislation in the past, and I think there's a lot of truth to the point about Bernie's campaign as well. But I also think that Sanders course-corrected on race a lot more quickly than non-Sanderistas give him credit for, too. A big part of the reason why it ended up hobbling him was because the Clinton campaign did a pretty effective job of convincing Dem primary voters that Sanders was, definitively, "bad on race." I disagree. Because right after the election, Sanders went right back to sticking his foot in his mouth when it came to racial issues, telling me that he in fact didn't learn poo poo. Such as when he says its not enough to be a woman or PoC, when for many, we never get that chance. Obama ran as a centrist but I would give some definite side-eye to someone who said that about his candidacy. The language minorities are allowed to use when on the national stage is far more limited than their white candidates sadly enough.
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Mar 1, 2017 03:02
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:This is such horse poo poo. Please tell me what exactly you object to about this response Please reread my post. We would be having this conversation about Barack Obama if this was 2008. He says Identity Politics doesn't matter if you don't stand up to the oligarchy. I am saying that as a black man, there are plenty of things that he cannot say that a white man can, and for many of us, that mattered a lot. I mean, we sat through his "conversation on race" about Jeremiah Wright, and we knew that he couldn't say what he wanted to. But yes, Identity Politics do matter even if you aren't going to attack the "oligarchy." But please tell me how my feelings on the matter is such horse poo poo. Probably Magic posted:But Sanders was ultimately right - one of Clinton's campaign points was, "I'm a woman," and it didn't generate nearly the same response as the guy with Hussain as his middle name. And the idea that women and PoC will never be president again is a total eye-roll. What it showed was that what helped Obama win in 2008 wasn't just that he was black, but that he promised post-partisan change, while Clinton's campaign ran on her being experienced, not Trump, a woman... and representing nothing really beyond herself. That ended up costing her hard. I am not talking about Clinton. I never mentioned Clinton. There were things Clinton could say about race that I don't think Obama would ever be able to say on a national stage. Majorian posted:Do you have any other examples? Because that could have been stated better on his part, I agree, but it doesn't strike me as particularly damning. Here is the thing. Sanders is so concerned about pushing his economic message that he ignores that diversity is about accepting people even if they don't share his agenda 100 percent.
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Mar 1, 2017 11:30
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