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Snow Cone Capone
Jul 31, 2003


boxcarhobo posted:

all of these are boring opinions

:getout:

I was with you until the SF4 thing, SFIII 3rd Strike was the pinnacle of the SF series

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Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

Kelp Me! posted:

I was with you until the SF4 thing, SFIII 3rd Strike was the pinnacle of the SF series

this is why I try not to venture out of the main fg thread

when boring 3s is now widely considered the pinnacle of the sf series it's not surprising we're getting games like this poo poo from capcom

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 31, 2003


Zand posted:

this is why I try not to venture out of the main fg thread

when boring 3s is now widely considered the pinnacle of the sf series it's not surprising we're getting games like this poo poo from capcom

I'm not really a fighting games pro but I had a lot of fun with SF3 and so did my friends, sorry if my opinion on a genre I don't excel at is somehow responsible for MvC:I potentially being bad I guess :shrug:

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

Kelp Me! posted:

I'm not really a fighting games pro but I had a lot of fun with SF3 and so did my friends, sorry if my opinion on a genre I don't excel at is somehow responsible for MvC:I potentially being bad I guess :shrug:

it's nothing against you, it's capcoms fault for failing completely at making a game both good and also appealing for everyone, since like sf2. other companies don't seem to have nearly the struggle that capcom has with this.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008
Yeah I think I'm out

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 31, 2003


Zand posted:

it's nothing against you, it's capcoms fault for failing completely at making a game both good and also appealing for everyone, since like sf2. other companies don't seem to have nearly the struggle that capcom has with this.

I mean SF3, MvC2 and MvC3 were all fun as hell for my casual self and friends, and all 3 have/had very active competitive scenes. MvC3 is accessible as hell to newbies and still appears to be played competitively. I'm not sure what the issue is, TBH?

boxcarhobo
Jun 23, 2005

Play ST friends

DLC Inc
Jun 1, 2011

I can't believe the Switch is getting the best fighting game of 2017

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

MinibarMatchman posted:

I can't believe the Switch is getting the best fighting game of 2017

yeah I can't wait for Arms either

ZenVulgarity
Oct 9, 2012

I made the hat by transforming my zen

boxcarhobo posted:

Play ST friends

Agreed

Also hi boxcar

Night Blade
Feb 25, 2013

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


I thought there was Sigma gameplay. I have been had.

cams
Mar 28, 2003


OPINIONFIGHT CIRCLEJERK

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

Kelp Me! posted:

I mean SF3, MvC2 and MvC3 were all fun as hell for my casual self and friends, and all 3 have/had very active competitive scenes. MvC3 is accessible as hell to newbies and still appears to be played competitively. I'm not sure what the issue is, TBH?
played competitively doesn't mean good or cool or not boring, or the nebulous "thing that I personally like".. I mean world of tanks is huge for example and there are lots of mobage tournaments

the main issue for most fg design from capcom seems to stem from them running away from negative public perception of their games and running towards what they think people want. the common perception of mvc2 (which is hugely wrong) strongly influenced design level decisions about mvc3 for example. the same can be said for this game and that's scary imo

you can see the influence of not really 3s, but what people (bads) think about 3s, in games like sfv, and it's that characters get boring superficial things like neutered parries because daigo tricked people into thinking tapping forward rhythmically is the coolest and best thing you can do in an fg. there are other decisions like this for sfv like hacked together fixes because option select became a dirty word from sf4.

a lot of stuff in this game sounds like design decisions written by YouTube and kotaku commenters. capcom seems to be trying to make a game for them, but I think there's a chance they could gently caress up and make a cool game on accident instead of the bad game they are trying for

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Apparently I missed in that Game Informer article that push blocking projectiles reflects them and apparently Ryu still has the normal DP motion.

IDK, the gameplay footage doesn't look too, too bad and gems seem a lot more interesting than I thought they were going to be. If I were a betting man I'd bet on it being lovely just because of Capcom's recent track record but I'll wait until people who aren't videogame journalists have played it before writing it off as trash for bloggers or whatever.

fadam fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Apr 27, 2017

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 31, 2003


Zand posted:

played competitively doesn't mean good or cool or not boring, or the nebulous "thing that I personally like".. I mean world of tanks is huge for example and there are lots of mobage tournaments

the main issue for most fg design from capcom seems to stem from them running away from negative public perception of their games and running towards what they think people want. the common perception of mvc2 (which is hugely wrong) strongly influenced design level decisions about mvc3 for example. the same can be said for this game and that's scary imo

you can see the influence of not really 3s, but what people (bads) think about 3s, in games like sfv, and it's that characters get boring superficial things like neutered parries because daigo tricked people into thinking tapping forward rhythmically is the coolest and best thing you can do in an fg. there are other decisions like this for sfv like hacked together fixes because option select became a dirty word from sf4.

a lot of stuff in this game sounds like design decisions written by YouTube and kotaku commenters. capcom seems to be trying to make a game for them, but I think there's a chance they could gently caress up and make a cool game on accident instead of the bad game they are trying for

You're basically saying that other peoples' opinions are responsible for the way these ganes are developing, but those peoples' opinions are wrong because they're "bads." So casual players' opinions are automatically bad/wrong? But you also say that an active competitive scene also is not an indicator of a good game. So if casuals' opinions can't be trusted as far as future game design, and competitive players' opinions aren't indicative of a good game, then what exactly are you looking for?

e: also that Daigo parry video is pretty sweet, I'm not sure why good parry timing is a bad thing to highlight for people :shrug:

Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 27, 2017

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Kelp Me! posted:

You're basically saying that other peoples' opinions are responsible for the way these ganes are developing, but those peoples' opinions are wrong because they're "bads." So casual players' opinions are automatically bad/wrong? But you also say that an active competitive scene also is not an indicator of a good game. So if casuals' opinions can't be trusted as far as future game design, and competitive players' opinions aren't indicative of a good game, then what exactly are you looking for?

e: also that Daigo parry video is pretty sweet, I'm not sure why good parry timing is a bad thing to highlight for people :shrug:

The problem is that with very, VERY few exceptions there literally hasn't been a single game ever that's been advertised as "made easier for new/casual players to get into" that hasn't been lovely.

The idea that there's this huge market of people that are willing to put tons of money and time into a game but they won't because the mechanics are too hard or whatever is bullshit, so for the past like five or six years companies have just been dumbing their games down and actively making them worse for literally zero return.

fadam fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Apr 27, 2017

DLC Inc
Jun 1, 2011

Guilty Gear Xrd has a "stylish" mode that my friend uses when we play so that's something, but it still doesn't tell you HOW exactly to do things roman cancel, burst down, do advancing guards, etc etc. In some ways offering an "EZ Mode" might be bad because when you try to fight people who know how to do advanced poo poo you'll get wiped out. I think MVC3 had a mode like that.

It's good to have those options but it's weird to simplify an entire game, instead of just having a Stylish Mode.

Fellblade
Apr 28, 2009

fadam posted:

The idea that there's this huge market of people that are willing to put tons of money and time into a game but they won't because the mechanics are too hard or whatever is bullshit

This might be true for fighting games so far, but I can guarantee you that there's a poo poo load of evidence out there for making games 'easier' (meaning more accessible) being the path to making buttloads of money.

Look at genre defining games like WoW, CoD4 or LoL and then look at the titles in that genre previously.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/11269865#Comment_11269865




PSYCH0J0SH posted:

No. Unless I'm breaking the rules or something I have every right to post here.



PSYCH0J0SH posted:

If you really think d3v puts the fear of god into me, I can only laugh.



hey Cabbagepots tell your partner in crime to shut the gently caress up already

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Fellblade posted:

This might be true for fighting games so far, but I can guarantee you that there's a poo poo load of evidence out there for making games 'easier' (meaning more accessible) being the path to making buttloads of money.

Look at genre defining games like WoW, CoD4 or LoL and then look at the titles in that genre previously.

I can't speak to CoD but while they might be simplified compared to their predecessors, LoL and WoW are still fairly complex games. League is a dumbed down DotA but it still has like a billion different heroes that can be built in a bunch of different ways and talent trees and items etc. I don't like it and I have literally zero desire to play it but its a good example of how a game doesn't have to be dumbed down to idiot baby level to be successful.

EDIT: DotA 2 and CS:GO have more people playing and make more money than most games and they're both really hard to learn. I'm not sure what the secret to making a game successful and popular is, but the idea that complicated games can't make money is lmao.

fadam fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Apr 27, 2017

bebaloorpabopalo
Nov 23, 2005

I'm not interested in constructive criticism, believe me.
The problem with making fighting games easier is it's impossible to reach the desired effect without severely reducing the granularity of skill levels in a very negative way. Not to mention it's just straight up impossible to achieve the effect desired by most people who parrot the "fighting games are hard" talking points without just making a different genre of game entirely.

It's made pretty obvious by SF5. They didn't make it any easier for a new/bad player to beat your average online warrior, but they did make it a hell of a lot easier for intermediate players to beat high levels.

Race Realists posted:

hey Cabbagepots tell your partner in crime to shut the gently caress up already

That is Cabbagepots but also you should just not post about them.

Fellblade
Apr 28, 2009

fadam posted:

I can't speak to CoD but while they might be simplified compared to their predecessors, LoL and WoW are still fairly complex games. League is a dumbed down DotA but it still has like a billion different heroes that can be built in a bunch of different ways and talent trees and items etc. I don't like it and I have literally zero desire to play it but its a good example of how a game doesn't have to be dumbed down to idiot baby level to be successful.

How does "advertised as made easier for new/casual players to get into" suddenly become "dumbed down to idiot baby level"?

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Fellblade posted:

How does 'advertised as made easier for new/casual players to get into" suddenly become 'dumbed down to idiot baby level'?

Because 99% of the time the two go hand in hand.

Chucat
Apr 14, 2006

Fellblade posted:

This might be true for fighting games so far, but I can guarantee you that there's a poo poo load of evidence out there for making games 'easier' (meaning more accessible) being the path to making buttloads of money.

Look at genre defining games like WoW, CoD4 or LoL and then look at the titles in that genre previously.

I'm staring really hard at Starcraft and nothing's happening.

boxcarhobo
Jun 23, 2005

ZenVulgarity posted:

Agreed

Also hi boxcar

hi, we should play but im stuck in anime rpg world

fadam
Apr 23, 2008

Injustass 2 is going to sell a buttload of copies to normies and if NRS supports it like they did MKX it will have a pretty good competitive scene until MKXI comes out.

I think if you have enough stuff to keep casual players interested like story mode, challenge mode, etc. you can basically do whatever you want with your competitive modes and still be successful.

Fellblade
Apr 28, 2009

fadam posted:

Because 99% of the time the two go hand in hand.

I agree that the previous two capcom fighting games are bad and were advertised as easier to access to new players but niether of them are idiot baby levels of dumbed down, just the total wrong things simplified for the audience they want to capture.

Chucat posted:

I'm staring really hard at Starcraft and nothing's happening.

Don't even know what this means, I can only assume you agree with what I said since there's no way Brood War is easier than SC2 or that it made more money than SC2.

Cartridgeblowers
Jan 3, 2006

Super Mario Bros 3

I really think it looks like mvc1, tbh.

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

Kelp Me! posted:

You're basically saying that other peoples' opinions are responsible for the way these ganes are developing, but those peoples' opinions are wrong because they're "bads." So casual players' opinions are automatically bad/wrong? But you also say that an active competitive scene also is not an indicator of a good game. So if casuals' opinions can't be trusted as far as future game design, and competitive players' opinions aren't indicative of a good game, then what exactly are you looking for?

e: also that Daigo parry video is pretty sweet, I'm not sure why good parry timing is a bad thing to highlight for people :shrug:
I'm not trying to provide answers for these problems fwiw, you seem to be misreading my intent with these posts. I'm in no way a problem solver, I just notice a gross trend.

and I'm not saying people's opinions are responsible for this trend. capcom is the one making the decisions here. nobody needs to repent for having ignorant opinions, I have ignorant opinions on almost everything, as does everyone else. but capcom is supposed to specialize in this field which is what makes it so disappointing.

the opinions of casuals aren't wrong, they are uninformed. they can keep having uninformed opinions, I don't care about that. the problem lies solely with capcom catering to the strawman "good game for everyone." and the opinions of competitive players are absolutely valuable but being a competitive player doesn't make you a game designer.

and the daigo parry was cool imo because of basically everything except the physical mechanic of parrying. the atmosphere and tension, the fact he had to do it before the flash, the combo he chose to follow up with, etc. what capcom got from this was copying the visual aspect of the mechanic to sfv (repeatedly) and not really anything else. it's hollow and lifeless

edit to be more clear, capcom sucks at making games cool at all skill levels and other devs seem to do this fine

Zand fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 27, 2017

bebaloorpabopalo
Nov 23, 2005

I'm not interested in constructive criticism, believe me.
i liked the video where the random online alex player full parried chun super and u can hear his buttons and hes just literally mashing them furiously with no timing and then he gets really hype

that's sf5

DLC Inc
Jun 1, 2011

fadam posted:

Injustass 2 is going to sell a buttload of copies to normies and if NRS supports it like they did MKX it will have a pretty good competitive scene until MKXI comes out.

I think if you have enough stuff to keep casual players interested like story mode, challenge mode, etc. you can basically do whatever you want with your competitive modes and still be successful.

The entire reason I feel Injustice 2 can get away with a "9 DLC characters + 1 preorder character" on day one is precisely this--the game will have a lot of poo poo right out of the gate to offer with all the modes therein. It took like a year for SFV to even give you an option to fight a loving CPU.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!

fadam posted:

I can't speak to CoD but while they might be simplified compared to their predecessors, LoL and WoW are still fairly complex games.

They aren't hard to make your character do what you want them to though. You press Mortal Strike, your warrior uses Mortal Strike and you either wait the second-and-change to press another button or use an off-gcd skill sometimes. I mean like Zand says sometimes fighting games aren't that hard on a basic level either (in terms of doing a special motion) but it takes a heck of a lot more time to commit a decent hit confirm -> combo to muscle memory than it does even more complex DPS rotations in WoW or buy orders in LoL. Those games, at least up to an intermediate level, have their difficulty in knowledge and hey nerds are pretty decent at memorizing a guide they saw on reddit on their lunch break compared to remembering the timing of a basic link.

And like Zand I don't really have a solution to this that keeps the coolness of actually successfully performing a cool combo or other execution-based thing in FGs while also both making them immediately intuitive and also dispelling the negative myths the genre has.

e: also LoL and WoW specifically have pve elements (or are almost entirely pve) and people like that.

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon
don't believe the gigamaiden leaks, there's no giganta guest character

Cabbagepots
Apr 7, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 4 years!

Race Realists posted:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/11269865#Comment_11269865





hey Cabbagepots tell your partner in crime to shut the gently caress up already

Kiss my rear end.

Why are you dragging up drama from another board onto here? I mean helldumping is one thing but you're not even posting anything funny.

Kurtofan posted:

don't believe the gigamaiden leaks, there's no giganta guest character

To be honest I'd rather have Arina and Roomi from Waku Waku 7 and Galaxy Fight

Cabbagepots fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 27, 2017

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Pwning the incels with my waifu fg character. Get trolled :twisted:
Lipstick Apathy

Countblanc posted:

e: also LoL and WoW specifically have pve elements (or are almost entirely pve) and people like that.

fadam posted:

I think if you have enough stuff to keep casual players interested like story mode, challenge mode, etc. you can basically do whatever you want with your competitive modes and still be successful.

^^

Monaghan
Dec 29, 2006

MinibarMatchman posted:

The entire reason I feel Injustice 2 can get away with a "9 DLC characters + 1 preorder character" on day one is precisely this--the game will have a lot of poo poo right out of the gate to offer with all the modes therein. It took like a year for SFV to even give you an option to fight a loving CPU.

I' don't like NR games but I will give them a lot of credit for putting an absolute poo poo ton of single and multi player content in their games. There's a reason their games sell well.

I'm hoping capcom will get it through their goddamn heads that you have to have a good amount of content and it has to be ready right out of the gate, but given their history, don't bet on it.

Arzachel
May 12, 2012

Countblanc posted:

They aren't hard to make your character do what you want them to though. You press Mortal Strike, your warrior uses Mortal Strike and you either wait the second-and-change to press another button or use an off-gcd skill sometimes. I mean like Zand says sometimes fighting games aren't that hard on a basic level either (in terms of doing a special motion) but it takes a heck of a lot more time to commit a decent hit confirm -> combo to muscle memory than it does even more complex DPS rotations in WoW or buy orders in LoL. Those games, at least up to an intermediate level, have their difficulty in knowledge and hey nerds are pretty decent at memorizing a guide they saw on reddit on their lunch break compared to remembering the timing of a basic link.

Doing your rotation properly while dodging fire and dealing with boss mechanics is harder than doing a simple confirm imo, but I am terrible at multi-tasking.

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Pwning the incels with my waifu fg character. Get trolled :twisted:
Lipstick Apathy

Arzachel posted:

Doing your rotation properly while dodging fire and dealing with boss mechanics is harder than doing a simple confirm imo, but I am terrible at multi-tasking.

They're different kinds of "skill," so the comparison is harder. But I would say that working your way up to boss raids in WoW is a natural progression, where your character is slowly acquiring new skills along the way and you get lots of chances to incorporate them into your strategy against braindead monsters. Dropping someone who's brand new to WoW on a fully leveled character and sending them on a raid would absolutely be overwhelming, and they'd be god-awful.

Fighting games kind of do that latter part, except that using your skills isn't a matter of hitting a key; it comes with its own substantial execution barrier.

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boxcarhobo
Jun 23, 2005

FG story modes and poo poo are the most pointless thing in the world to me, like even the guilty gear story seems cool but i cant bring myself to watch an 8 hour long VN or whatever

ngl I'm fuckin hype for the tekken story mode, that poo poo looks tight, harada is god

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