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Guy Goodbody posted:I disagree with the notion that there are downsides to anti-racism for white people. I am not materially harmed if cops shoot fewer black people. I do not lose "privilege" if black people aren't imprisoned at a disproportionately higher rate.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:06
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It's not even worth ceding that though - it's only a material sacrifice if you're assuming that the white laborers are somehow not having their surplus labor expropriated, even in the racist-new-deal - they are, it's just less. Like today, the people benefiting from all this aren't rednecks, the people getting beat on for being racists, it's white professionals, the people looking down on them. Who benefits the most from having cheap migrant labor do everything for them?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:09
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White supremacy isn't solely about labor and money.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:11
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PT6A posted:Inasmuch as you're then competing socially and economically with more people of colour who haven't been turned into a permanent underclass through the correctional system, you do. Like factsareuseless and rudatron said, getting people out of prisons would have other positive effects. A society that keeps people imprisoned for no reason is not a society already operating at maximum efficiency. The result wouldn't just be higher unemployment. The idea that a decrease in the black prison population would lead to an increase in white unemployment is crazy, and the fact that it's being propagated by people who consider themselves anti-racist is completely rear end-backwards
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Jan 10, 2017 18:12
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It is if you're arguing it's a material sacrifice. Police brutality and lovely services don't benefit white people, if anything have more successful black people would raise overall productivity = more stuff.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:12
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rudatron posted:It is if you're arguing it's a material sacrifice. Police brutality and lovely services don't benefit white people, if anything have more successful black people would raise overall productivity = more stuff. You do realize "material" in "material sacrifice" means "meaningful", right?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:15
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So what, exactly, is being sacrificed? It's not personal self-interest, because it's 'not just labor and money'. It's not morality, because that's on the side of emancipation here.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:24
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rudatron posted:So what, exactly, is being sacrificed? It's not personal self-interest, because it's 'not just labor and money'. It's not morality, because that's on the side of emancipation here. The psychological, emotional, and physical benefits of belonging to an elite class of people who society is structured around supporting.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:26
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Anecdotal but I like talking politics more with Conservatives because they will calmly and rationally try to make their point, and if I disagree they will make a counterpoint or respectfully agree to disagree. The other guys speak academic gibberish and if I disagree with even a fraction of what they want to say, start to lose their composure. It's unpleasant to talk to them. They're never content to agree to disagree because if you disagree you're a Bad Person and need to be corrected or ostracized.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:27
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Brainiac Five posted:How do you sell people on the idea they shouldn't murder? It took a war and soldiers occupying their towns afterward to stop the south from literally owning human beings, and they've been pissy about it ever since. Basically, you'll never convince everyone using moral or ethical arguments. Sometimes, you have to kick them in the teeth until they stop doing something so egregious.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:28
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Frosted Flake posted:Anecdotal but I like talking politics more with Conservatives because they will calmly and rationally try to make their point, and if I disagree they will make a counterpoint or respectfully agree to disagree. This but the exact opposite.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:28
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Talmonis posted:It took a war and soldiers occupying their towns afterward to stop the south from literally owning human beings, and they've been pissy about it ever since. Basically, you'll never convince everyone using moral or ethical arguments. Sometimes, you have to kick them in the teeth until they stop doing something so egregious. Thank you for reiterating the argument for the necessity of violence in a justice system.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:29
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Bullshit, you just said they're no physical benefit, and emotional gratification from being racist is derived from ideology, which you can replace with anything you want. You have that degree of freedom.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:30
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Frosted Flake posted:Anecdotal but I like talking politics more with Conservatives because they will calmly and rationally try to make their point, and if I disagree they will make a counterpoint or respectfully agree to disagree. Yeah me too. I've had better luck talking to conservatives about far-left politics than liberals.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:30
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Frosted Flake posted:Anecdotal but I like talking politics more with Conservatives because they will calmly and rationally try to make their point, and if I disagree they will make a counterpoint or respectfully agree to disagree. Congrats on only knowing shitheaded 'other guys' I guess. I've not found a problem finding any side of the political aisles (give or take nazis) to discuss things with calmly.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:30
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Someone post the Hitler "just want to eliminate the Jews" comic.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:31
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TomViolence posted:Say you're right and anti-racism is a material sacrifice that will adversely effect even lower class white people in meaningful ways, thus making it some honourable sacrifice that it's morally imperative they undertake. How do you sell that to the vast bulk of people, many of whom feel that even as things stand -- with the deck ostensibly stacked significantly in their favour -- that they're getting a raw deal? You can't wield this guilt-tripping idea that poor whites are the enemy of progress and hope to change their minds with it, all you do is feed their own persecution narrative and further entrench whatever prejudices they have. The same way you sell "don't rob people, even if you feel disadvantaged and think you need the money"? Poor whites certainly don't have any problem moralizing about high crime rates among disadvantaged minorities, so why should it be an excuse for them?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:31
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rudatron posted:Bullshit, you just said they're no physical benefit, and emotional gratification from being racist is derived from ideology, which you can replace with anything you want. You have that degree of freedom. What on Earth? I didn't say "no physical benefits", you liar, I said they weren't the only ones. I don't even know what point you're trying to make with the ideology poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:32
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Talmonis posted:Someone post the Hitler "just want to eliminate the Jews" comic. Here you go: 
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Jan 10, 2017 18:32
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The Kingfish posted:Yeah me too. I've had better luck talking to conservatives about far-left politics than liberals. Hint: the pointy hood is a turn-off for liberals!!!
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Jan 10, 2017 18:33
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Main Paineframe posted:The same way you sell "don't rob people, even if you feel disadvantaged and think you need the money"? Poor whites certainly don't have any problem moralizing about high crime rates among disadvantaged minorities, so why should it be an excuse for them? What is robbing people an analogy of?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:33
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The Kingfish posted:What is robbing people an analogy of? It's not an analogy. It's an example of how people willfully refrain from behaviors that would benefit them.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:34
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Why would you write a long-winded op about how your opponents are all idiots when you could have just gone to a website like the American Conservative or National Review or even Breitbart and found a summary of your opponents positions written in their own words? You don't even have any quotations from them. Is there any actual research behind your summary or did you just write it from the gut based on a few half-remembered arguments you've gotten into?rudatron posted:It is if you're arguing it's a material sacrifice. Police brutality and lovely services don't benefit white people, if anything have more successful black people would raise overall productivity = more stuff. Guy Goodbody posted:Like factsareuseless and rudatron said, getting people out of prisons would have other positive effects. A society that keeps people imprisoned for no reason is not a society already operating at maximum efficiency. The result wouldn't just be higher unemployment. I think that people's perceptions of where their interests lie are a bit more complicated than you're allowing here.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:34
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Brainiac Five posted:Thank you for reiterating the argument for the necessity of violence in a justice system. I'd more say it's a firm argument for the existence of and monopoly on State violence (state as in government itself) to safeguard society. The breakdown is that we let the individual states and counties have their own standards of enforcement, leading to horrible corruption and systemic racism.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:36
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Also I'm gonna go ahead and say that any thread where every second post is by Brainiac Five is destined for great things. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 10, 2017 18:36
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Tesseraction posted:Congrats on only knowing shitheaded 'other guys' I guess. I've not found a problem finding any side of the political aisles (give or take nazis) to discuss things with calmly. That's the thing. I want to dismiss them as shitheaded or bad examples but these are the guys organizing events, running Student's Unions, and presenting at conferences. They're the top people in the local community and the fact that they act like rude assholes turned me off the whole thing. They get national coverage, write articles for major publications but are incapable of having a civil conversation with someone who is 99% in agreement. e: as a well-known example some of these people are responsible for shutting down the yoga class for disabled students as "cultural appropriation".
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Jan 10, 2017 18:36
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Brainiac Five posted:Hint: the pointy hood is a turn-off for liberals!!! If a guy says he has had better experiences talking with conservatives than liberals, and based off that you call him a KKK member, you do understand that you are only supporting his argument, right?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:37
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No, not at all Helsing, I'm sure their perceptions of their interests are more complex, but I'm talking about the reality. Like, to all peeps itt, you're arguing that racism just feels good because reasons, that you can't substitute that with anything, aren't you making the same kind of existentialist argument that racists themselves make, about races, without any real evidence?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:37
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Frosted Flake posted:That's the thing. I want to dismiss them as shitheaded or bad examples but these are the guys organizing events, running Student's Unions, and presenting at conferences. They're the top people in the local community and the fact that they act like rude assholes turned me off the whole thing. You're at university? Here's a hint mate: all politically minded people at university are without exception shitheads. Sorry, that includes you. It included me! To a one: shitheads. I'm still technically a shithead now but I have to interact with consequences so it's harder to get away with it.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:40
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Brainiac Five posted:Hint: the pointy hood is a turn-off for liberals!!! I'm Black. Guess which side is the only one that has given me poo poo about my "blackness" or is open about expecting me to say or think certain things because of my race. I have had better conversations about the merits of communism with conservatives than the other guys, and about race relations too.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:41
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Brainiac Five posted:It's not an analogy. It's an example of how people willfully refrain from behaviors that would benefit them. So it is an analogy. Not robbing = not being racist. Its a terrible analogy for reasons that should be obvious.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:44
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm Black. Guess which side is the only one that has given me poo poo about my "blackness" or is open about expecting me to say or think certain things because of my race. This is a valuable anecdote and we should do what with it exactly?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:46
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Frosted Flake posted:I'm Black. Guess which side is the only one that has given me poo poo about my "blackness" or is open about expecting me to say or think certain things because of my race. What's your opinion on the targeted voting laws from Republicans explicitly intended to reduce Black voter turnout? How about Black Lives Matter being equated with the assumption that supporting said message means you want police to die?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:47
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Nevvy Z posted:This is a valuable anecdote and we should do what with it exactly? Listen and accept that this is a thing he's experienced? Not make snide remarks or attacks on his character? Not every post needs to be replied to.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:48
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The Kingfish posted:So it is an analogy. Not robbing = not being racist. Its a terrible analogy for reasons that should be obvious. No, it's not an analogy. Lying will get you nowhere.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:49
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Guy Goodbody posted:Like factsareuseless and rudatron said, getting people out of prisons would have other positive effects. A society that keeps people imprisoned for no reason is not a society already operating at maximum efficiency. The result wouldn't just be higher unemployment. Of course it's a net good for society, and even most people individually, if people are not unjustly imprisoned. But it can be negative for certain individuals, or at least it could be negative for them in certain ways. Or they perceive it would be negative for them, regardless of reality. None of these are reasons why we should continue to imprison people unjustly. There are plenty of things that are good on a societal level but can negatively impact certain individuals. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. EDIT: In the context of your original post: yes, you will lose some degree of privilege. No, it will likely not affect your life, and it's entirely possible that the resulting changes in society not directly relating to that loss of privilege will benefit you. PT6A fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 18:51
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The Kingfish posted:Listen and accept that this is a thing he's experienced? Not make snide remarks or attacks on his character? Oh good I didn't know if bitching about how mean those liberals are was confined to the election thread or not. I'm not sure what we do with it other than say "well we all know people in college are dumb and think they are smart" because college is when most people think they are smartest and are actually not. People should really stop being lovely about race in general, but I suggest we start here on the very boards we post! Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 18:54
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Nevvy Z posted:This is a valuable anecdote and we should do what with it exactly? Whatever you like. "Listen and Believe". This is a thread about culture wars and I'm sharing the reasons why I, a person who has every political reason to be on board has been turned off because of personal experience. One man one vote begins with anecdotes but ends up winning and losing elections.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:54
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I believe that that happened to you but plenty of other people have similar anecdotes about lovely conservatives and I'm not sure how that can guide our efforts except to maybe try and call out people being idiots or people being lovely about race but that doesn't get looked kindly on around these parts.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:58
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Nevvy Z posted:I believe that that happened to you but plenty of other people have similar anecdotes about lovely conservatives and I'm not sure how that can guide our efforts except to maybe try and call out people being idiots or people being lovely about race but that doesn't get looked kindly on around these parts. Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:59
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