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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. I already that, thanks. 
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Jan 10, 2017 19:01
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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. Is interpreting this as "don't ever try to change society" overreaching or...?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:02
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Yes? I think it's okay to 'call people out', but you have to be able to set boundaries. If you're going to end up 'calling out' 70+% of the population, for the normal poo poo they say, you've made a mistake somewhere.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:02
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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. In other words, do nothing about racism and remain silent. You're being very revealing.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:03
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I'm not even being snarky. It is extremely important thing to think about how your actions are coming off towards the people you are interacting with. E: tone matters.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:03
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When somebody says something racist to me in a discussion I tell them that I think they're wrong and I explain why that is.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:05
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rudatron posted:No, not at all Helsing, I'm sure their perceptions of their interests are more complex, but I'm talking about the reality. I'm just not sure how much we can separate someone's perceived interest from their actual interests. Let's say I undergo elective surgery to donate a kidney to a friend in need. I perceive this to be in my "interest" but am I actually mistaken about this? It doesn't seem like there's a coherent way to a find a correct answer here one way or the other, it just comes down to my personal preference and judgement. We can talk about racist societies operating below efficiency and thus producing lower standards of living (as measured in economic terms) but I think it's a fairly shallow interpretation of human psychology to think that their "real" interest always lies in whatever path will lead to the largest expansion of their material comforts. People desire to live for things larger than themselves and for people raised in certain cultural milieu that something can be a cultural or racial or otherwise sectarian identity that is necessarily defined in opposition to some kind of other.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:06
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The Kingfish posted:I'm not even being snarky. It is extremely important thing to think about how your actions are coming off towards the people you are interacting with. If you're a white cishet male and know the codespeak of white cishet males, then yes, tone matters. Barring that, outnumbering your opponents matter.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:07
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The Kingfish posted:When somebody says something racist to me in a discussion I tell them that I think they're wrong and I explain why that is. Yes, you like to treat racism as legitimate, we are all aware.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:07
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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. That'd sure make it nice and covenient for the Trumpstaffel wouldn't it? Silence is assent and all that?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:08
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Brainiac Five posted:In other words, do nothing about racism and remain silent. You're being very revealing. Btw, would you posit that a white person has no practical incentive to not be racist? That is to say, if they are racist throughout their life, or even just through parts or one point, that racism will have garnered them a net gain, and will not come back to bite them through how it deprives them of the contributions of African Americans have to offer this country?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:09
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Tone matters. If you talk about racism in a monotone, people will understand it to be as important as accounting paperwork. If you talk about racism with normal human emotions, people will understand it as something other people feel things about.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:09
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:If you're a white cishet male and know the codespeak of white cishet males, then yes, tone matters. Barring that, outnumbering your opponents matter. Actually, anyone can have a productive discussion with anyone else who is willing.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:11
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The Kingfish posted:Actually, anyone can have a productive discussion with anyone else who is willing. The word you're looking for is "theoretically", not "actually".
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Jan 10, 2017 19:11
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Brainiac Five posted:In other words, do nothing about racism and remain silent. You're being very revealing. I know someone who was shunned for wearing her engagement ring. Her fellow activists thought it was heteronormative and so a symbol of straight privilege, unfeminist because it was the equivalent of a dowry "like her father being offered a cow in exchange for her", and that she was reinforcing the patriarchal institution of marriage. Personally, I would have been happy for her and focussed on her work as an activist. How did turning away a good activist help fight the patriarchy exactly?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:12
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Helsing posted:I'm just not sure how much we can separate someone's perceived interest from their actual interests. Let's say I undergo elective surgery to donate a kidney to a friend in need. I perceive this to be in my "interest" but am I actually mistaken about this? It doesn't seem like there's a coherent way to a find a correct answer here one way or the other, it just comes down to my personal preference and judgement.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:12
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:The word you're looking for is "theoretically", not "actually". No. Anyone who is willing can have a productive conversation with anyone else who is willing.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:12
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If you just jump through these hoops I might consider cops murdering small children to be wrong, or at least pretend to.- One of "The Kingfish's" conservative friends.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:13
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The Kingfish posted:Actually, anyone can have a productive discussion with anyone else who is willing. As it is, one cannot control what others say. The best way to calm a discussion is to cut folks slack, whether you feel like they deserve it or not. I'm not singling you out for anything, I just felt that quoting someone helps to gain their attention, and by helping one person in a conversation notice it, I can help all person participating
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Jan 10, 2017 19:14
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Realtalk though; someone calling you out for stupid poo poo like microaggressions or cultural appropriation (and actually calling you out and not just talking to you about it) doesn't invalidate anti-racism as a concept or platform. Acting like they do is just an excuse to discard an already uncomfortable truth about yourself.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:15
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Frosted Flake posted:Here's my call-out story: Then they all started beating her up while chanting "Kill All Men", I assume.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:15
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Frosted Flake posted:Here's my call-out story: So you literally live in a world that is exactly like how all the right-wing blowhards imagine everywhere else is like. Huh. Not to say it doesn't exist but can you tell me where it is so I can mark it down as a garbage place to be?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:15
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Brainiac Five posted:If you just jump through these hoops I might consider cops murdering small children to be wrong, or at least pretend to.- One of "The Kingfish's" conservative friends. All things considered Brainiac, Do you really think that discrimination against black people does not come back to harm everyone?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:16
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Talmonis posted:Realtalk though; someone calling you out for stupid poo poo like microaggressions or cultural appropriation (and actually calling you out and not just talking to you about it) doesn't invalidate anti-racism as a concept or platform. Acting like they do is just an excuse to discard an already uncomfortable truth about yourself. E: depends on what your conception of "anti-racism as a platform" is I guess.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:17
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Tesseraction posted:So you literally live in a world that is exactly like how all the right-wing blowhards imagine everywhere else is like. Huh.  Ottawa Brainiac Five posted:Then they all started beating her up while chanting "Kill All Men", I assume. No then she stopped participating even though she was a good researcher in Womens Studies and had made great presentations at conferences. She stopped helping with organizing and had to get a whole new friend group because her book club, knitting circle and all were these people who had jumped all over her. Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 19:17
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Nevvy Z posted:This is a valuable anecdote and we should do what with it exactly? Listen and take it as information on his lived experience, whether you personal believe it's valuable or not. Like...the ideals expressed by the OP are good ones. We cynical goons know that people often don't uphold them - even professed progressives - but that doesn't mean they're a bad set of principles to uphold.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:17
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thechosenone posted:All things considered Brainiac, Do you really think that discrimination against black people does not come back to harm everyone? Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:19
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Brainiac Five posted:If you just jump through these hoops I might consider cops murdering small children to be wrong, or at least pretend to.- One of "The Kingfish's" conservative friends. If you put up with people's nonsense then you can persuade them to agree with you and support anti-racist policies. Literally what you just said.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:20
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Tesseraction posted:Here you go: I don't understand why people who are ostensibly dedicated to making real-world progress are so dead set against adopting any strategy that doesn't fit their narrative of how things should go. Suggestions that the Left reach out to Trump voters using language and incentives that they understand is still being met with accusations of appeasement and moral degradation. Imagine a general in a real war demanding a stand-up fight against a better organized, more powerful opponent because "history's on our side" and "we shouldn't have to fight in a way we don't want to!" That's every pollyanna on the Left right now who thinks tone, messaging and outreach don't matter. At some point, probably very soon in America and Europe, the shrill Lefties occupying the limelight are going to have to decide which they care more about : actually improving the world in material ways, or being "right" in whatever egotistical way they've defined it. And if they make the wrong decision, everyone else is will have to decide what to do with them.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:20
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Frosted Flake posted:
Yikes. Please tell me this is just on campus?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:20
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Brainiac Five posted:Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid. But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:20
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Frosted Flake posted:Here's my call-out story: Your friend was shunned by morons who are also lovely activists. It doesn't invalidate Feminism as a concept or something that needs activism. The Kingfish posted:I don't think anyone here is trying to invalidate anti-racism as a concept or platform. It depends. The phrase "this is why Trump was elected" is pretty indicative that the person posting it is dismissive of legitimate causes due to imagined or anecdotal College Activists.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:21
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Brainiac Five posted:Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid. And you think that someone is all white people? What if it was actually some smaller and more powerful group of white people who benefit from racist policies?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:21
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Brainiac Five posted:Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid. Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. A problem with what you're saying is that guy doesn't give a gently caress. Never has, never will. So you can throw your book learnin' at him all day long and he's just gonna vote Republican because at least they talk to him on his level about things that affect him. The left will never, ever understand this, I'm afraid.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:23
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thechosenone posted:But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people? Why would you think otherwise? Why else would people continue to maintain structural racism if it obviously hurt them? Are white people all suicidal?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:23
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How many stories of 'lovely activists' is it going to take, before people entertain the idea that something may be wrong with activist culture, in particular, the way it's essentially been 'professionalized'? Or are we going to pretend this problem cannot exist, ever?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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That's the literal concept of White Privilege, guys.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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Talmonis posted:It depends. The phrase "this is why Trump was elected" is pretty indicative that the person posting it is dismissive of legitimate causes due to imagined or anecdotal College Activists. I understand that you feel this way, but it doesn't indicate that to me. To me it indicates a frustration with the type of bourgeois college activism which eats its own young.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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VikingSkull posted:Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. No, poor people aren't mentally deficient.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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the trump tutelage posted:Imagine a general in a real war demanding a stand-up fight against a better organized, more powerful opponent because "history's on our side" and "we shouldn't have to fight in a way we don't want to!" That's every pollyanna on the Left right now who thinks tone, messaging and outreach don't matter. The point of that image isn't to say "being loud is fine" it's to point out that 'sounding' reasonable is different from 'being' reasonable. In case you haven't noticed, I've not actually yelled that anyone here is a fascist, mostly because my combat keyboard needed some polishing first. In reality the people you whine about are a tiny minority of progressives and the people doing the work aren't noticed because they aren't as loud. In fact, the loudness of the supposed 'SJW's only seems loud because they've reached the same volume as the crybabies on the right. Tumblr's moonbats and the alt-right's wingnuts are real and loud and yes very much annoying, but the election of the orange clown man is not the shifting tide of societal change you think it is.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:25
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