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VikingSkull posted:Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. thechosenone posted:But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people? The concept of White Privilege is exactly about the examples you're trying to muster.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:25
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rudatron posted:How many stories of 'lovely activists' is it going to take, before people entertain the idea that something may be wrong with activist culture, in particular, the way it's essentially been 'professionalized'? Or are we going to pretend this problem cannot exist, ever? There's a whole heap of difference between swallowing right-wing propaganda whole and giving it its due 0.3 second consideration..
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Jan 10, 2017 19:26
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Brainiac Five posted:Why would you think otherwise? Why else would people continue to maintain structural racism if it obviously hurt them? Are white people all suicidal? It's about perception. There's the standard denial of reality; "I don't benefit from anything, black people are just whiny" and there's the more honest but internal "if they get more, it means someone takes it from me." It doesn't matter that neither of these things are actually true. Perception is reality to the average person.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:27
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Brainiac Five posted:Why would you think otherwise? Why else would people continue to maintain structural racism if it obviously hurt them? Are white people all suicidal? The Idea would be that they don't realize that it does, and that some of it doesn't happen consciously.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:27
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There's a difference between recognizing RW propaganda as false, and recognizing RW propaganda as influential.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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Frosted Flake posted:Here's my call-out story: You should have pointed out that they were being sexist as gently caress because that is her ring and she gets to own property. The issue with doweries is irrelevant and they are bad activists. the trump tutelage posted:At some point, probably very soon in America and Europe, the shrill Lefties occupying the limelight are going to have to decide which they care more about : actually improving the world in material ways, or being "right" in whatever egotistical way they've defined it. And if they make the wrong decision, everyone else is will have to decide what to do with them. It's a tricky balance because on the one hand some people just need to be told to gently caress right on off, on the other hand there are people who legitimately might be persuadable who are nervous about being yelled at for an accidental slip of the tongue or for misgendering someone.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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thechosenone posted:The Idea would be that they don't realize that it does, and that some of it doesn't happen consciously So, it doesn't hurt them, then, and does benefit them. Gee! What a notion. All this poo poo about white innocence is plainly an effort to reify white supremacy and prevent people from talking about racism.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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Do you think Frosted Flake was here just to spread Right Wing Propaganda? I mean there are literal video examples and news stories of the kind of toxic activism being referred to, is that all just propaganda? At what point do you start challenging your assumptions here?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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rudatron posted:Do you think Frosted Flake was here just to spread Right Wing Propaganda? I mean there are literal video examples and news stories of the kind of toxic activism being referred to, is that all just propaganda? At what point do you start challenging your assumptions here? Imagine if this post was about crime statistics instead.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:30
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rudatron posted:Do you think Frosted Flake was here just to spread Right Wing Propaganda? I mean there are literal video examples and news stories of the kind of toxic activism being referred to, is that all just propaganda? At what point do you start challenging your assumptions here? The question is, how do you stop assholes being assholes? They're clearly class conscious but opt instead to take an unhelpful method of activism. What can you do to stop them while respecting freedom of speech?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:30
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rudatron posted:How many stories of 'lovely activists' is it going to take, before people entertain the idea that something may be wrong with activist culture, in particular, the way it's essentially been 'professionalized'? Or are we going to pretend this problem cannot exist, ever? I was where you are a while back. These people annoy the everloving gently caress out of me. But outside of online circles, and possibly college, where do you see this happening? I've never once encountered it in "the wild." Hell, I'd be too busy lauging and livestreaming the whole thing while doing my best Sir David Attenborough impression to get mad. In other words, they don't really exist in any capacity. They're a propaganda piece delivered by Fox and Co. to invalidate civil rights.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:31
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Nevvy Z posted:You should have pointed out that they were being sexist as gently caress because that is her ring and she gets to own property. The issue with doweries is irrelevant and they are bad activists. I would argue that working one's self up when dealing with someone whom is difficult to speak with or says things that are inflammatory to you does you no benefit, and only reaffirms their opinion.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:31
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Tesseraction posted:The question is, how do you stop assholes being assholes? They're clearly class conscious but opt instead to take an unhelpful method of activism. What can you do to stop them while respecting freedom of speech? I don't think they are class conscious actually. I think they were probably liberals.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:32
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Tesseraction posted:Yikes. Please tell me this is just on campus? It's not. These people graduate someday right? And go on to be professional activists who hang out with other activists and their endless drama bleeds into the real world when it effects Pride, or Slut Walk or anything else. Maybe my city is just an example of a few bad apples but they're all dedicated social climbers and managed to be running important things. I agree that their behaviour doesn't take legitimacy away from Feminism, but their work is definitely effected, let alone any kind of outreach to the public without a Humanities degree or PhD in Womens Studies.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:32
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You don't have to try and convince assholes. You just have to outnumber them. Last November indicates that you have to outnumber them by more than 3m though, bummer.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:33
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It's not about assholes 'existing', it's about enabling assholes, giving them the excuse they need be assholes, without correction. That is what you're granting to them, when you argue, flat out, that tone doesn't matter, or you don't have to explain anything to people (that's their obligation to learn), or whatever other thing you push out here. Those are ideas that are rear end in a top hat-enablers. Conceivably they could be okay in a perfect world, but they're not.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:33
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Brainiac Five posted:So, it doesn't hurt them, then, and does benefit them. Gee! What a notion. I was saying that it hurt's them, but that they do not recognize it. If they did, it would cause them to change their behavior, and likely from there they would change their moral opinion.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:33
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Tesseraction posted:The question is, how do you stop assholes being assholes? They're clearly class conscious but opt instead to take an unhelpful method of activism. What can you do to stop them while respecting freedom of speech? Mock them. Relentlessly and with great numbers of their peers. Especially if you can get a well known activist to help.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:34
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Use of phrases like "professional activists" merely reiterates that this is the consequence of right-wing propaganda: people just start automatically filing things according to this narrative, and they decide to ignore dissenting beliefs, and categorize anyone with passion as crazy or manipulative.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:35
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Frosted Flake posted:It's not. These people graduate someday right? And go on to be professional activists who hang out with other activists and their endless drama bleeds into the real world when it effects Pride, or Slut Walk or anything else. I'll put it this way - student politics is full of these kind of assholes over here in the UK too. After graduating? They fade into irrelevance. The few who've tried to bleed into mainstream politics are laughed out of the room and end up in fringe political parties with little effect on policy (pronounced: none). The Kingfish posted:I don't think they are class conscious actually. I think they were probably liberals. Well yes, which is why Mao told people to combat liberalism in their own ranks. I don't have a state or guerrilla army at my disposal, though.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:35
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Brainiac Five posted:Imagine if this post was about crime statistics instead.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:36
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thechosenone posted:I was saying that it hurt's them, but that they do not recognize it. If they did, it would cause them to change their behavior, and likely from there they would change their moral opinion. One of the problems is the message being given to those people is one of "you benefit from a racist system and by default if you do not understand that at a base level, you are also a racist" What that does is tell that person to ignore the message because as they know racism, they do not fit that definition. So the messenger is effectively "lying" to them.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:36
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In the real world, people laugh, cry, and rant. Acting like a robot is actually the freakish thing to do, not expressing emotion.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:37
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Talmonis posted:Mock them. Relentlessly and with great numbers of their peers. Especially if you can get a well known activist to help. A question, do you think this works in general?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:38
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If "call-out" culture enables assholes to become expert social climbers, who is it serving? If you can bully your way to organizing events, I don't think it means you're a good organizer or even that you have the most correct beliefs. It's bizarre and I've never seen anything like it. How can you get this behaviour to stop and prevent assholes from reaching the top, without letting go of the idea of call-outs?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:38
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rudatron posted:You're going to have to lead me through this one. Your post is about how anecdotal events naturally fit your statistical and structural narrative, much like how racists use high-profile crimes and crime rate statistics to argue black people are subhuman.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:38
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A few bad apples? http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/01/womens-march-on-washington-devolves-into-racial-identity-politics-fight/ Is the problem that we are too comfortable in our current situation that organizing for things that are deemed problems can devolve into ridiculous bullshit like this? Is this an indication that we actually have no problems?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:39
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VikingSkull posted:Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. "Sometimes when I listen to these people talking, and still more when I read their books, I get the impression that, to them, the whole Socialist movement is no more than a kind of exciting heresy-hunt — a leaping to and fro of frenzied witch-doctors to the beat of tom-toms and the tune of "Fee fi, fo, fum, I smell the blood of a right-wing deviationist!"" - some rear end in a top hat, probably
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Jan 10, 2017 19:39
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rudatron posted:It's not about assholes 'existing', it's about enabling assholes, giving them the excuse they need be assholes, without correction. That is what you're granting to them, when you argue, flat out, that tone doesn't matter, or you don't have to explain anything to people (that's their obligation to learn), or whatever other thing you push out here. Those are ideas that are rear end in a top hat-enablers. Conceivably they could be okay in a perfect world, but they're not. I've not made the 'tone doesn't matter' argument, although I will posit that if someone is saying something correct in a rude way, does that make the message bad, or the messenger?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:39
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rudatron posted:Human beings have certain easily observable and quantifiable desires - the desire for security, prosperity, purpose, community, etc. If you believe that 'sectarian identities' are part of those desires (and that such identities can only ever exist in opposition to some other identity), then you're arguing that racism is eternal. I do not agree with that. I think racism exists because it provides a feeling of an imagined community and security, as well as the (false) impression that there are people out there who 'get' you. There's nothing about those desires that necessitates the existence of something that they can only exist in opposition to, and that kind of thinking is a case of too much philosophical idealism. Does Man existing mean Woman must exist? Technically, but there's no special reasons humans must be men or women, perhaps in the future that distinction will no longer exist - that 'necessity' will have simply disappeared. I don't agree that "purpose" or "community" are "easily quantifiable" and I challenge you to actually quantify them in a way that isn't completely vague and tautological. As far as racism, it's a historical phenomenon and obviously the specific racial and sectarian prejudices plauging the world today are not eternal categories, they're constantly evolving and sensitive to context. But in a larger sense I would say that yes, my own belief is that prejudices and identity-formation based on othering appear to be fairly basic psychological traits and a political philosophy that assumes these tendencies can be permanently overcome is getting dangerously close to utopian. Even if we build a more just society in which these othering tendencies are sublimated into harmless conflicts, there will still always be a lurking danger of these sentiments reappearing in a more harmful form in the future, because humans seem to have an innate capacity for group-based prejudice and I don't think that capacity can be permanently eliminated. I don't want to come off as saying that racism can never be eliminated because I think any specific instance or racism or sexism or any other prejudice is the result of a specific historical context, which is changeable. But reducing our opponents to irrational caricatures isn't necessarily the best way to develop good strategies to fight them. Racism isn't just an irrational attempt to accumulate material goods, it's a very important way that many people construct their identities and we need to recognize that if we're going to develop effective anti-racist strategies. Just dismissing it as some kind of false consciousness seems dangerous to me as it could lead us to develop the wrong intuitions about the best way to counter racist trends in society.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:39
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thechosenone posted:A question, do you think this works in general? It works when it's done by your peer group, but not by outside or rival groups.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:39
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Brainiac Five posted:In the real world, people laugh, cry, and rant. Acting like a robot is actually the freakish thing to do, not expressing emotion. How long do you listen to someone who is crying and ranting? How long does it take to adequately explain some of these concepts well enough to change someone's voting behaviour?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:42
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Kraps posted:A few bad apples? http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/01/womens-march-on-washington-devolves-into-racial-identity-politics-fight/ White people and black people had an argument. Truly, the SJWs have lost.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:43
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Brainiac Five posted:Your post is about how anecdotal events naturally fit your statistical and structural narrative, much like how racists use high-profile crimes and crime rate statistics to argue black people are subhuman. We already know racism is bullshit, scientifically, so your comparison doesn't hold.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:43
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Tesseraction posted:White people and black people had an argument. Truly, the SJWs have lost. This unbiased report sure seems to indicate that that is the case.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:43
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VikingSkull posted:One of the problems is the message being given to those people is one of "you benefit from a racist system and by default if you do not understand that at a base level, you are also a racist" I personally think that we do not benefit from a racist system. I would even go so far as to think that white people, even rich white people would be better off without racism.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:44
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thechosenone posted:I personally think that we do not benefit from a racist system. I would even go so far as to think that white people, even rich white people would be better off without racism. Then you truly are The Chosen One.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:45
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mlk posted:I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:46
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Talmonis posted:It works when it's done by your peer group, but not by outside or rival groups. Alright, so then how do you convince someone in a group you are not a part of?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:45
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:Then you truly are The Chosen One. Okay. Do you agree with me?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:46
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