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Sorry OP, but you said that the "progressives" wanted to deal with wealth inequality. Actually all that identity politics stuff is used as a smokescreen by the democratic elites so they don't have to challenge wealth inequality. Because you realise that millionaires and billionaires are the ones putting money in everyones pockets, right? Everything you hear, from the media, or from any politician but Bernie Sanders is going to be something that a rich person wants you to hear for their own economic interests. This is the same reason why the entire media was dumping on Trump and blowing air up Hillary's rear end for the whole election campaign. Brexit and Trump in one year has really been a stunning defeat for the elites who control our national conversation. Of course, they still have the power of the media so they will continue with the old strategies of attacking the working class for being racist when in fact all they're doing is opposing neoliberalism in their own economic interests. Once the people of the west finally wake up to the false dichotomy of left and right they've been sold over the past few decades, while the corrupt "left" and "right" parties have constructed a crony capitalist, neoliberal matrix on behalf of their donors, maybe things will finally start to change in favour of the average person.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:30
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TomViolence posted:You can't confront class inequality without also confronting racial, gender and LGBT inequality. Similarly you cannot do the reverse either, as liberals have tried to do. This false dichotomy of class vs. identity is bullshit and you cannot hope to make progress if you abandon one for the other. The whole point is that in the modern world, class politics is the ONE thing you aren't allowed to push forward. That's why I make such a big deal about it. The elites are more than happy to have superficial identity politics so that young people can pat themselves on the back for how progressive the world is now and how things are getting better. But they aren't. Inequality is ever-worsening, and it's worsening along racial lines most of all, because the ruling class is overwhelmingly white. For this reason, class has to be at the forefront of the conversation, otherwise it will continue to be buried. Whenever you see a liberal hillary supporter say something like "Would breaking up the big wall street banks end racism or sexism??" you're seeing the deliberate use of identity politics to distract from wealth inequality and class struggle - Something that ID politics has been used more and more for in the past few years. That's why I've been so turned against it. It's been used by the rich and their media outlets to distract and divide the workers. quote:Also, if you think Brexit and Trump were anti-elitist victories you're truly delusional. One is a corrupt, authoritarian millionaire filling up the benches with his own friends and cronies from among an establishment-adjacent elite and the other was a successful ploy by the non-dom billionaires who own the British press (along with their pals in big business) to beggar the country and set the stage for buyouts, privatisation, repeal of labour laws and human rights protection and massive tax evasion. As opposed to the corrupt, authoritarian millionaire in Hillary Clinton who we had on the other side? Or the British Chamber of Commerce, with David Cameron, Nick Clegg and George Osborne calling for us to remain in the EU? Both sides have their rich twats at the top, of course. You can't succeed without some support from the elite in the modern world. But the vast majority of the establishment in the USA and UK didn't get what they wanted for once. That's a big deal.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:52
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Who is the lesser evil is an entirely subjective thing. In my eyes, the globalist neoliberalism that Obama and Clinton support is a far greater evil than Trump's nationalism.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:27
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Fados posted:They are not that separated, you needed 40 years of centrist milquetoast liberals selling the working class downstream to get Trump And now the milquetoast liberals are crying and screaming at the working class for ruining things while they were going so well. Jack Gladney posted:Surprise! He's both. Goldman Sachs owns the country now, plus there will be concentration camps. Case in point. 
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Jan 14, 2017 21:23
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If I wished for concentration camps then I'm pretty sure I'd be satiated with the past 8 years of Obama refusing to close one.
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Jan 14, 2017 21:50
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khwarezm posted:I think I'll make a thread in about 6 months to ask about how well this blind, accelerationist garbage works out for you guys. Well considering I'm already working an insecure job with no healthcare that barely keeps me above water, and have already resigned myself to the endless oblivion that all humans face in death, I don't think things can get any worse. I look forward to seeing privilege removed from those who currently have it, though. Crazy Cloud posted:and all y'all talkin down on accelerationism overnight can suk a fuk
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Jan 14, 2017 23:08
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Maluco Marinero posted:National insurance schemes are good. Stop tearing them down and the risk pool gets so diluted that it won't cost an arm and a leg to get them. Single payer healthcare schemes are good, with great value for money. The ACA is a horrible pile of poo poo written by Mitt Romney and designed to shovel more of the poor and middle class's money into the rich's pockets.
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Jan 15, 2017 02:40
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khwarezm posted:Trump is going to implement policies firmly squared in the Republican playbook and you'll find that, yes, things can actually get worse and those with privilege will just accrue more to the point that they will be even more difficult to dislodge by the end of his term. The best you can expect is that a marginal number of manufacturing jobs will be forced (or rather bribed) to remain in the rustbelt while Trump also expands the deportation programs that Obama made much use of and marvels that one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatus in the world is at his fingertips. Lol. And what "should" we leftists have learnt from the primaries? Because what I learnt was that the field was cleared years ahead of time for Abuela because it was "her turn" and despite this a totally unknown senator from a tiny state was almost able to clinch the nomination from her with a single repeated speech about economic populism and she was such a terrible candidate that she went on to lose to orange cheeto hitler, a man who could not help but insult the majority of america almost constantly. So I guess what I learnt is that economic populism good, being a corporate sellout and nominating a horribly unlikable corrupt plutocrat bad. If given the chance, I feel that I couldn't do any worse in building an open, inclusive leftist movement that can mobilize the democratic base than Clinton and the Liberals did. I mean, the democrats just got creamed. It was humiliating. Embarrassing. It's only uphill from here - Providing they actually listen to Bernie/the cries of pain from the american people and start standing up to wall street, big pharma etc. Trump knocked 25 billion dollars off American Pharmaceutical companies' values the other day with provocative tweeting. Could you ever imagine Clinton standing up to the powers that be in that way? For someone who has been screwed so badly by neoliberal globalism, seeing the Pres poo poo-talk all these assholes is like music to my ears. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 15, 2017 |
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Jan 15, 2017 02:44
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White Rock posted:Seriously, if we are not gonna examine what Trump is, what he is trying to do, and how we can use what he is doing to our benefit the OP might have well just have posted "Trump is a fascist, sexist racist and must be stopped" and locked the thread. Nevermind, the thread has been gassed by the denizens of D&D for having opinions in it which are not their own reflected back at them
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Jan 15, 2017 02:58
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rudatron posted:Like it's funny that dems are happy to say that white voters can be stupid or whatever, vote against their own interests, yet that standard is never applied to non-white voters, who are assumed to be perfectly politically informed and able to deduce people's intentions with 100% accuracy. It's loving nuts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvmHM9TNVr0
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Jan 15, 2017 05:58
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It's a good video with a woman of colour expressing her intelligent political views. Stop bullying me rudatron. None of the wokes in here are going to listen to you harder because you beat up on the guy everyone hates a little first.TomViolence posted:A low rumble is heard in the vicinity of Highgate cemetery as Karl Marx's spinning intensifies. Karl Marx was actually pretty problematic and unwoke. Just look at his views on sex workers, and other multitudes who make up the "lumpenproletariat".
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Jan 15, 2017 06:11
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The top states with blacks making up over 20% of the population aren't even swing states. Once you get below those, you know which states have the most black peeps? The Rust Belt. A unifying message of economic "hope and change" for the working class of all races is so fricken obvious a winner (just look at the polls on things like social security and universal healthcare) but no one wants to do it because, well, then they'd have to share the money out. And they'd rather keep us divided while they snatch away the last few crumbs we have.
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Jan 15, 2017 06:40
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While I'd much prefer a socialist or social-democratic state where from each according to their ability, to each according to their need, I, like most of the American electorate, vastly prefer Trump's wishy-washy post-racial neo-fascism to the globalist neoliberalism of the past 30 years. If the only choice is A) Neoliberalism with woke affectations that make it okay to yell at poor white men or B) post-racial neo-fascism in which you might get a job building a wall, or a road, and maybe companies will be twittershamed into bringing jobs back to your community, people are going to pick the one that has at least a chance of ending the pain they're currently enduring. It's up to the left to offer a better alternative that can appeal to the majority. Or don't, and just let the populist right ride the wave of indignation and class fury and make society in their image instead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c11cHgDFi4c The Saurus fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 15, 2017 |
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Jan 15, 2017 07:51
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khwarezm posted:He appealed to white identity politics, worried about unchecked Hispanic immigration and, yes, worried about the end of a way of life represented by the nine to five manufacturing job down at the plant. These are both economic issues, hth. Along with his constant speeches on outsourcing and trade deals that harm the american worker.
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Jan 15, 2017 23:13
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NONE of the wealth generated under neoliberalism, whether from immigration, the depression of wages, the breaking of unions, the free trade agreements or any other source during the last 30 years has gone to the average worker. That's why threats of damaging the economy didn't work against Brexit or Trump. They know it doesn't matter if wealth keeps being generated without forcing a change in the distribution of the wealth between the classes. The wealth from immigration and outsourcing goes to the top 1%, meanwhile the poor in the native country get worse off, and watch inequality soar. Then they get pissed off, and you can either direct them towards socialism or they'll turn to other means of protecting themselves economically out of despair. Let's remember who the immoral ones are here - The plutocrats and the establishment of both parties, not ordinary workers.
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Jan 16, 2017 04:55
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OwlFancier posted:Nationalism, Marxism, and racial/sexual/sexuality...al identity politics can all be put under a fairly simple umbrella of trying to construct a collective identity to inspire collective action. The latter two are generally productive, the former seldom so. Can you please explain to me what the difference is between Nationalism and Racial identity? Surely they come from the exact same place? Never heard of ethnonationalism?
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Jan 16, 2017 04:58
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Peven Stan posted:Who is the average worker? Some kind of underemployed goonlord who feels like capitalism has failed because he should've been handed a 50k a year office job where he sends out a few emails a day and goes to a meeting or two? You're not the average american, sorry. The vast majority of Americans have seen their living standards drop or stagnate as the growth of the last few decades. Especially non-white Americans, in fact - Because most of the oligarchic class running things and pushing IDPol is white. quote:Compare the level of poo poo your "average" American has today to one in 1980 or 1960: a mcmansion in the suburbs, at least two cars, and electronic gizmos out the wazoo. Do you like asian food or do only cucks eat foreigner food? Most millenials can't even afford to move out of their parents' house, those mcmansions were all repossessed. I am a foreign immigrant, and I only eat vegetarian asian food. quote:No doubt, but you're pretending like whites don't benefit from cozy neoliberalism at all. Sure, the median 40k a year person got blown out but for anyone making more than that they've seen an increase in their standard of living. Rich whites benefit from neoliberalism just like rich non-whites do. Will Smith does not face the same struggles as everyday black Americans. quote:That fact that you think your plutocrat buddy trump is about to show those (((globalists))) who is boss is hilarious. Explains why he's stocking his cabinet with Goldman Sachs alumni right? He's publically and repeatedly spoken about wanting to bring jobs back to America, end China's currency manipulation, renegotiate trade deals, put taxes and tariffs on companies that outsource, and deport/prevent illegal immigrants who are used to undercut American wages. He also promised no cuts to social security, medicare and medicaid. If he decides to go back on his promises, then he's going to have a very rough time in his presidency, with the rising up of the working class on the right and the left against him. Hillary Clinton offered nothing for the average working class person.
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Jan 16, 2017 05:29
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TomViolence posted:He's publically and repeatedly spoken about all kinds of awful, unconscienable poo poo too, but according to you that's all just hot air. So what psychic gift do you have that allows you to divine the promises The Donald intends to keep and which (often contradictory) ones he intends to discard? The most likely case is that he'll cave to the interests of his capitalist cronies and throw the masses all the racism and scapegoating they want in order to placate them, because he's a selfish narcissistic piece of poo poo demagogue and nothing matters to him but his own power and prestige, you loving idiot. Nothing matters to Hillary Clinton but her own power and prestige either, (I won't stoop to calling you a loving idiot). At least with Trump you take the chance he might improve the lives of you and the people you know. With Hillary, she straight up said she didn't give a gently caress about anyone in the "flyover states". I mean ffs: "If we break up the big banks, would that end racism, would that end sexism?" - "We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of work", the wall street speeches, the clinton foundation donations - It was so obvious she was a corrupt plutocrat who would do nothing to change the decline the working class and the country has been on for so long. Not our fault you made sure our only alternative to her was Pisspig Grandad instead of Bernie Sanders, Who Would Have Won.
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Jan 16, 2017 06:51
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Trump will either improve things for his constituents like he promised or accelerate us towards socialism, though. Hillary would have maintained the status quo. for another 4-8 years. Sorry that you were privileged and you're worried Trump is going to threaten that. But those of us with painful lives are done waiting for things to get better. Perhaps if more of those middle/upper class coastal liberals or the ones supporting actual lovely conservative republicans/gary johnson have their comfort and security taken away like we have to live with, they'll join us in voting for a solution. If not, I'm happy just to vote out of spite and schadenfreude against people better off than me who were acting like smug assholes and flinging around insults and constant propaganda in favour of Shillary. crazy cloud posted:
The point is, you can either come up with a left-wing program that appeals to people like me, or we'll vote for people like Trump and laugh at you as you throw tantrums, spout over the top nonsensical hyperbole about concentration camps and whine for several years. We're already dying, we're already destitute, we're already in poverty. At this point, we have far less to lose than you do, even if all of the horrible threats you're hysterically crying about come true.
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Jan 16, 2017 07:50
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TomViolence posted:I'm interested in how I made sure of anything since I don't live in America or have a vote in their elections, let alone the democratic primary. And I'd have voted for Bernie anyway so I don't know what the gently caress. What country are you from? It's important to know for the sake of cultural relativism. Perhaps you just can't understand the American mindset where Trump isn't that bad to us? I mean the Europeans love to act smug and superior about Trump while doing the most Heinous poo poo, like austerity all over, massive unemployment, especially for youths, letting German bankers run the EU and literally beggar and starve the Greek people to death.
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Jan 16, 2017 07:52
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I wasn't allowed to vote - I'm an immigrant. And also I think Trump will literally make life better for the average American with the policies he put forward in the election than Clinton - And I don't believe all that crap spewed by the Lugenpresse owned by plutocrats that will do and say anything to get what they want and maintain their power, influence and wealth. I mean look at the people who were attacking him - The entire loving establishment including every single politician, the media and the rich and powerful rallied behind Hillary. With enemies like that, he must be doing something right. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 08:19
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No, I'm a Jeremy Corbyn supporter. Just like I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter. Because when there's an actual left-wing option, that's what I vote for.
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Jan 16, 2017 08:39
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Only stupid children believe that Donald Trump is anything like Hitler. You know, it seems with the majority of the West seeming to prefer Global Trumpism/Brexit over neoliberal IDPol, you'd better get used to the idea of having people like me as allies, or get used to losing. French and German elections coming up too! Any others this year? Italy? 
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Jan 16, 2017 08:46
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I didn't vote for him, and I would have voted communist or Jill Stein or written in Bernie or something. I just don't think he's any worse than what politicians in the west have been doing for years, decades. I mean they're loving monsters who murder people for profit and political expediency, and collaborate in making the poor poorer to give more to the rich. How is he any worse than them? How will he BE any worse than them in office, really? What could he possibly do worse? Also - The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and he sure is pissing off a lot of my enemies and it's fantastic to watch. He's won, might as well enjoy it. Why should I let it upset me when it's so entertaining, instead of spending my time on this earth happy and gleeful? The man makes quality hats, too. I've got a white on gold - PIMP. (that one goon was definitely right when he said I was a chav)
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Jan 16, 2017 08:51
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I regularly volunteer my time to help people worse off than myself. This includes working at a soup kitchen in a poor black urban area, where we teach young kids kitchen skills so they can get jobs as well as feeding several hundred people in the community per day (and they let us volunteers take home some food too, which helps make up the cost of the bus fare for me). Unfortunately it's in a church rather than a leftist party or organisation - The nearest one of those was in a more expensive area in the city, much too far away and too expensive for me to get to. I also volunteer to help immigrants and people who want to immigrate from places like Syria and Lebanon where things are extremely poo poo and dangerous fill out their applications and give them advice about immigrating to the United States legally. And I applied to volunteer for Richard Wolff because I can't afford to go to Manhattan and pay $10 just to see him in person, and I'd love to contribute to his fantastic videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4gPXvW3DG4 There's only so you much you can achieve when you're constantly either working, looking for work, or fighting depression and addiction because you can't find meaningful work that allows you to afford to pay rent, bills and groceries (let alone healthcare coverage) or that lets you contribute to society in some way with your talents that gives you fulfillment.
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Jan 16, 2017 09:10
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Trump spoke about the need to make the United States energy independent, and prepare for the future when fossil fuels are going to run out in a few decades time (which is an issue totally separate from climate change) and said he would support ethanol fuel for vehicles, and renewables of all kinds (which are now getting cheaper and are becoming competitive with fossil fuels). I don't think we need to worry about the end of the world (at least no more than we did before) Globalism is one of the biggest reasons for climate change and its acceleration! Instead of having people in the west produce things in their own countries, the raw materials are shipped from the country where that is cheapest, to the place where the components are manufactured, to the place where the components are assembled, and finally to the market where they will be sold. The amount of wasted fuel and the amount of pollution pumped into the atmosphere from not having communites and nations produce the goods for their consumption locally is devastating for the environment as well as those communities. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 09:24
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Grognan posted:real talk, how did you get the hate and avatar? The avatar is from my favourite red pill avatar, of which I was posting a few on SA a while back to mock MRA/Incel types or whatever they're called nowadays.   Someone bought it for me because there was a thread about sex and stuff and I spoke about the difficult of having sex with a woman with a small frame when you have an above average sized dongus. Quite frankly I'm a bit surprised no one bought me one in the past few days about how the Mexican stalker from south of the border trying to seduce my wife on facebook made me a Trump supporter. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 09:31
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In that case, the only real thing that will cause us to change will be the cost of renewable energy and infrastructure falling below the the cost of fossil fuel derived energy and infrastructure. I'm not sure if that necessarily needs 100% international cooperation, though of course the more cooperation there is the better I don't think that getting cooperation on climate change is worth selling out the working and middle class of the world in trade deals that outsource jobs and let corporations sue governments in weaker foreign nations for reducing profits with minimum wage and union laws. It's in their interest just as much as ours to work to combat it. Convergence posted:You didn't answer my question. Do you agree that international collaborative effort is needed to effectively combat climate change given the economic (dis) incentives involved? If we're never going to run out of fossil fuels - Then how is it too late? We can't think "Well the damage is now done" surely - when we can just keep burning fossil fuels for another 200 years. There needs to be a fundamental change in how humanity lives - Including living in small apartments, using public transport or small cars, and not using aeroplanes and container ships/barges regularly. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 09:40
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Thanks Higsian, I appreciate that. Honestly, just being talked to with a little bit of respect, kindness and empathy makes a huge amount of difference. Like instead of saying "Hey, you're a bad person, you're our enemy, how could you vote for Hitler 2.0!" and being like "Hey, I don't agree with the choice you made, but I can understand why you made it. And both of our options were terrible in 2016. Let's work together to hold his feet to the fire and FORCE him to make those concessions you wanted to see, and to make sure we have a better choice than Donald Trump next time around" One of the things I love about right now is that the Dems made Bernie Sanders the head of the budget committee, and he did that tweet print out thing and used other quotes to make Trump keep his word. I really hope Trump's desire to be loved let's Sanders push him towards some real populism with that tactic! It really seems like Sanders came out of this smelling of roses, he could be the most popular politician in America right now. Everyone on both sides of the aisle I've spoken to likes him except for two small groups - Hill Shills and rear end in a top hat FYGM wealthy Republican types who like Romney and Jeb! and Ted Cruz. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 09:48
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I absolutely agree with you, but I don't think there's any real hope of international cooperation on ANYTHING meaningful until capitalism is dealt with. Otherwise it's too easy for capital to move from nation to nation controlling weaker governments, dividing and ruling, buying elections and dictators all over the place. Worker's democracy is pretty much a requirement for true, progressive, positive globalism as well as effective international cooperation on climate change (industry/business is by far the biggest contributor to climate change. Effective regulations of them will never happen under capitalist governments that act on behalf of the rich and their business interests.
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Jan 16, 2017 09:59
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Furthermore once all the workers have a UBI and are guaranteed all the necessities of life, I'd be more than happy to bring over immigrants from other nations, from places like Central America and South America where they're basically facing terrorism from drug cartels and gangs, as well as the middle east. They should be brought in legally in an exchange, where they can learn skills and professions to benefit the USA if they choose to stay and apply for citizenship, or go home and help their fellow citizens in the spirit of international solidarity. This is like what countries like Cuba, Venuzuela, Bolivia do with each other and their doctors/teachers/students. We should definitely be improving relations with south and central America, and cooperating more with them. We just need to put a stop to illegal immigration and things like H1B visas until the fall of capitalism where the only purpose is to undercut wages and conditions for native workers to the benefit of the employers who can pull the strings. My wife is getting into a serious amount of debt for her Computer Science degree, and if she can't find a decent paying job because all of them have gone to people from abroad who are willing to take 1/2-1/3 what she is, we're pretty loving screwed. Since we're only just keeping afloat now, and she's about to come off her parents' insurance at the end of her degree - You have to start repaying your student loans several hundred dollars a month whether you find a job or not. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 10:09
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