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How in the hell do you even arrive at the idea that life's a zero-sum game where in order to win others must lose? That's literally the logic Trump operates on and it's complete bullshit.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:05
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Main Paineframe posted:Enriching white people to the detriment of everyone else is literally the point of racism. It's essentially why racism was invented. There's hardly any point in tap-dancing around it because anyone with a brain is already well aware, and combating racism has always come at the detriment of some group of white people because the literal, actual, specific purpose of racism was to elevate white people at the expense of minorities. Change that to "Enriching a specific subset of white people while setting workers against each other" and I'm onboard. If you seriously think Joe Sixpack is making a material sacrifice by not being as racist as his bosses want, then the bosses' zero-sum narrative wins and the worldview that legitimises racism and allows racists to operate is reinforced.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:15
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The idea that anti-racism is a sacrifice is some backslapping liberal philanthropic bullshit that reframes what should be solidarity as an act of charity.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:18
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Brainiac Five posted:Racism predates capitalist economic relations, though. Are we talking systemic, institutionalised racism here or individual racial prejudice? The former I think really emerged with colonialism and the advent of the transatlantic slave trade whereas the latter has probably existed in some form since forever. Either way the perpetuation of the latter in modern times has mostly been a result of the former in order to protect the economic interests of a white elite -- undeniably primarily to the detriment of the minority population but also to the detriment of the lower class white population. Racism is a scapegoating tactic and an attempt to legitimise hierarchy and is harmful to the vast bulk of the proletariat, be they the ethnic minority or majority, due to it hamstringing class consciousness and solidarity. We've just seen an election where racial prejudice was a large motivator in lower class whites voting against their own economic interests, which sort of supports the view that white supremacy is not beneficial to the vast bulk of the white proletariat and that shedding it might actually be a good idea even from a wholely self-interested perspective.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:32
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Say you're right and anti-racism is a material sacrifice that will adversely effect even lower class white people in meaningful ways, thus making it some honourable sacrifice that it's morally imperative they undertake. How do you sell that to the vast bulk of people, many of whom feel that even as things stand -- with the deck ostensibly stacked significantly in their favour -- that they're getting a raw deal? You can't wield this guilt-tripping idea that poor whites are the enemy of progress and hope to change their minds with it, all you do is feed their own persecution narrative and further entrench whatever prejudices they have.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:04
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mlk posted:I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:46
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Those uppity activists need to stop making a fuss and inconveniencing people with their appeals to empathy and shared humanity.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:50
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Frosted Flake posted:Is that what I said? How persuasive do you think this behaviour is? Do you think it's winning over voters? If you think politics begins and ends with the ballot box then I'm somewhat unsurprised you find activism so unpalatable. edit: the trump tutelage posted:I am completely convinced that the angrier and less pragmatic an activist is, the more interested they are in punishing power than elevating the powerless. Popular anger publicly expressed is a means of both elevating the powerless and punishing the powerful and thus is also the most pragmatic course of bringing about radical change. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 19:57
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All this time I thought social activism was necessary for society to function and evolve but it turns out it's all motivated by an untrustworthy and pathological resentment and accompanying need to punish.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:25
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It's literally what you said though.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:28
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thechosenone posted:I figure if it is literally what he said, you would have quoted him. If he literally said it, you should have just quoted him. the trump tutelage posted:Intent matters. Nobody who is primarily motivated by resentment and a need to punish can be trusted with the power that they're seeking.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:31
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the trump tutelage posted:No, I said that the angrier and less pragmatic an activist is, the more interested they are in punishing power than elevating the powerless. Wouldn't it be fair to say that all activists are angry about the status quo on some level? And what do you consider a pragmatic way to protest, if not through publicly expressing this discontent with the way things are?
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Jan 10, 2017 20:37
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Brainiac Five posted:The same reason you wouldn't beat and rob someone. I mean you say that, but there are people I would feel entirely justified in beating and robbing. Like slave owners for instance.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:08
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w/r/t tone arguments: Well I sure am glad that people of colour are no longer constrained by some kind of Jim Crow-like etiquette that shunts them out of public life and prevents them from fully expressing themselves in the fight for their civil and political rights. Seriously if people are literally dying because of poor access to healthcare, police violence and endemic poverty and discrimination it's a bit loving rich to ask them to simmer down and be all calm and dignified and take each smack upside the head with a serene, beatific smile. I wouldn't ask a white working class striker or a college campus anti-war protester to mind their Ps and Qs like that, I sure as poo poo wouldn't condescend to an ethnic minority living in a white supremacist settler state like that either. Protest, even in its most peaceful form, is transgressive. It is civil disobedience. If you want to have a measured and civil debate get around a table, get a gavel. In modern society there is so much noise that it is absolutely necessary to shout in order to be heard if you want to meaningfully protest. All dignified silence does is pat a few woke people on the back for noticing your suffering, coddle their egos and achieve nothing meaningful because they already knew you were there. imo
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Jan 13, 2017 04:55
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The problem is unless you're on a space rocket, you're not personally effected by someone being bad at math. Tiptoeing around the sensibilities of someone who hates you due to your race, class, gender or sexual identity is just gonna reinforce their idea that they're superior to you and entitled to your respect as a result.
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Jan 13, 2017 05:12
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Please take the knife out of my back, he said. It's been there so very long. Okay, yeah, just pull it out one inch at a time, that's fine, we're making progress.
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Jan 13, 2017 05:29
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The goal of activism is to make it untenable for the powerful to ignore your demands, not to come cap in hand to beseech the condescension and patronage of the bosses.
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Jan 13, 2017 05:37
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You can't confront class inequality without also confronting racial, gender and LGBT inequality. Similarly you cannot do the reverse either, as liberals have tried to do. This false dichotomy of class vs. identity is bullshit and you cannot hope to make progress if you abandon one for the other. Also, if you think Brexit and Trump were anti-elitist victories you're truly delusional. One is a corrupt, authoritarian millionaire filling up the benches with his own friends and cronies from among an establishment-adjacent elite and the other was a successful ploy by the non-dom billionaires who own the British press (along with their pals in big business) to beggar the country and set the stage for buyouts, privatisation, repeal of labour laws and human rights protection and massive tax evasion.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:42
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Backing the lesser evil to destroy the greater is morally compromised enough, but what you're advocating is backing the greater evil to destroy the lesser. Playing into the hands of oligarchs and demagogues that even the rapacious establishment we already had disavowed for being too greedy, too extreme, too cynical and too authoritarian.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:42
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Who is the lesser evil is an entirely subjective thing. When you say billionaire paedophiles do you mean the establishment as-is or the guy who implied on a radio show that he wouldn't mind overmuch sticking his dick in his own daughter and bragged openly about getting away with sexual assault? Can't wait to see just how manageable you think Trump's gonna be, considering that there'll be very few checks and balances against him in implementing the same old republican policy just turned up to 11 this time and aligned with hard-right tea party nutters and far-right neonazis and a whole smorgasbord of other reactionaries. The man's not just a dick, he's rich, power-hungry, narcissistic dick whose entire schtick seems to be taking every terrible American social, economic and foreign policy of the past 50 years to it's most undesirable conclusion to the detriment of the most people possible. The Saurus posted:In my eyes, the globalist neoliberalism that Obama and Clinton support is a far greater evil than Trump's nationalism. If you think Trump's gonna give you a fairer economic system when one of the first things that's happened since his win is a motion for the repeal of the affordable care act I really don't know what the gently caress to tell you. There's a degree of weaponised stupidity in play here that I can't actually comprehend.
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Jan 14, 2017 20:53
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He and his dickhead appointees and hangers-on have literally floated the idea of registries, travel bans and internment camps for "disloyal americans", such as muslims. Maybe you're going "lol" though because Trump is your last great white anti-capitalist hope after the death of your hero Ernst Rohm and you're laughing because your wish for concentration camps has finally been granted.
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Jan 14, 2017 21:38
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The Saurus posted:we leftists A low rumble is heard in the vicinity of Highgate cemetery as Karl Marx's spinning intensifies. Peven Stan posted:(((being underemployed and underinsured))) is the fault of (((globalists))) and not my own lack of ability jfc this thread.
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Jan 15, 2017 04:23
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The Saurus posted:Can you please explain to me what the difference is between Nationalism and Racial identity? Nationalism is a collective identity built around mutual citizenship of a nation state, bound together by ethnic, civic or cultural bonds. Racial identity is constructed from within and without a given often supranational group on the basis of shared ethnic and cultural origins and characteristics. You should really get clued in on all this stuff if you're serious about being a nazi, I mean this is national socialism 101 right here. Very basic stuff.
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Jan 16, 2017 05:02
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The Saurus posted:He's publically and repeatedly spoken about wanting to bring jobs back to America, end China's currency manipulation, renegotiate trade deals, put taxes and tariffs on companies that outsource, and deport/prevent illegal immigrants who are used to undercut American wages. He also promised no cuts to social security, medicare and medicaid. If he decides to go back on his promises, then he's going to have a very rough time in his presidency, with the rising up of the working class on the right and the left against him. He's publically and repeatedly spoken about all kinds of awful, unconscienable poo poo too, but according to you that's all just hot air. So what psychic gift do you have that allows you to divine the promises The Donald intends to keep and which (often contradictory) ones he intends to discard? The most likely case is that he'll cave to the interests of his capitalist cronies and throw the masses all the racism and scapegoating they want in order to placate them, because he's a selfish narcissistic piece of poo poo demagogue and nothing matters to him but his own power and prestige, you loving idiot.
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Jan 16, 2017 05:37
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The Saurus posted:Nothing matters to Hillary Clinton but her own power and prestige either, (I won't stoop to calling you a loving idiot). Hillary was poo poo, I'd be the first to agree. I could go on all day about how poo poo she was. Cheeto Benito is the worst, though, and you're either thick or disingenuous if you're saying he's going to improve anybody's life but his own and his cronies'. The Saurus posted:Not our fault you made sure our only alternative to her was Pisspig Grandad instead of Bernie Sanders, Who Would Have Won. I'm interested in how I made sure of anything since I don't live in America or have a vote in their elections, let alone the democratic primary. And I'd have voted for Bernie anyway so I don't know what the gently caress.
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Jan 16, 2017 07:04
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