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Guy Goodbody posted:I think that's a pretty big flaw in Privilege Theory. Casting any gain by black people as a loss for white people is not a great way to get white people on-board with anti-racism. On the other hand, solipsists like you are good for nothing, so antiracism seems fine without ya.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:43
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Guy Goodbody posted:What? Your post considers the truthfulness of the theory as irrelevant. Someone indifferent to whether something accurately describes reality or not and who cares about whether it makes them feel good in their tummy is a solipsist.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:50
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Guy Goodbody posted:If you seriously think that white people would be worse off in a less racist society, then isn't it logical for white people to support racism? Only if you are indifferent to evil.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:02
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TomViolence posted:Change that to "Enriching a specific subset of white people while setting workers against each other" and I'm onboard. If you seriously think Joe Sixpack is making a material sacrifice by not being as racist as his bosses want, then the bosses' zero-sum narrative wins and the worldview that legitimises racism and allows racists to operate is reinforced. Racism predates capitalist economic relations, though.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:20
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TomViolence posted:Are we talking systemic, institutionalised racism here or individual racial prejudice? The former I think really emerged with colonialism and the advent of the transatlantic slave trade whereas the latter has probably existed in some form since forever. Either way the perpetuation of the latter in modern times has mostly been a result of the former in order to protect the economic interests of a white elite -- undeniably primarily to the detriment of the minority population but also to the detriment of the lower class white population. Racism is a scapegoating tactic and an attempt to legitimise hierarchy and is harmful to the vast bulk of the proletariat, be they the ethnic minority or majority, due to it hamstringing class consciousness and solidarity. We've just seen an election where racial prejudice was a large motivator in lower class whites voting against their own economic interests, which sort of supports the view that white supremacy is not beneficial to the vast bulk of the white proletariat and that shedding it might actually be a good idea even from a wholely self-interested perspective. Race isn't ethnicity, and actually predates the Triangle Trade somewhat. But you're insisting that all that matters is vulgar Marxist understandings of economics, neglecting how race serves to create an elite and how the elimination of racism would destroy that elite status.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:55
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TomViolence posted:Say you're right and anti-racism is a material sacrifice that will adversely effect even lower class white people in meaningful ways, thus making it some honourable sacrifice that it's morally imperative they undertake. How do you sell that to the vast bulk of people, many of whom feel that even as things stand -- with the deck ostensibly stacked significantly in their favour -- that they're getting a raw deal? You can't wield this guilt-tripping idea that poor whites are the enemy of progress and hope to change their minds with it, all you do is feed their own persecution narrative and further entrench whatever prejudices they have. How do you sell people on the idea they shouldn't murder?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:06
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White supremacy isn't solely about labor and money.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:11
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rudatron posted:It is if you're arguing it's a material sacrifice. Police brutality and lovely services don't benefit white people, if anything have more successful black people would raise overall productivity = more stuff. You do realize "material" in "material sacrifice" means "meaningful", right?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:15
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rudatron posted:So what, exactly, is being sacrificed? It's not personal self-interest, because it's 'not just labor and money'. It's not morality, because that's on the side of emancipation here. The psychological, emotional, and physical benefits of belonging to an elite class of people who society is structured around supporting.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:26
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Talmonis posted:It took a war and soldiers occupying their towns afterward to stop the south from literally owning human beings, and they've been pissy about it ever since. Basically, you'll never convince everyone using moral or ethical arguments. Sometimes, you have to kick them in the teeth until they stop doing something so egregious. Thank you for reiterating the argument for the necessity of violence in a justice system.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:29
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rudatron posted:Bullshit, you just said they're no physical benefit, and emotional gratification from being racist is derived from ideology, which you can replace with anything you want. You have that degree of freedom. What on Earth? I didn't say "no physical benefits", you liar, I said they weren't the only ones. I don't even know what point you're trying to make with the ideology poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:32
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The Kingfish posted:Yeah me too. I've had better luck talking to conservatives about far-left politics than liberals. Hint: the pointy hood is a turn-off for liberals!!!
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Jan 10, 2017 18:33
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The Kingfish posted:What is robbing people an analogy of? It's not an analogy. It's an example of how people willfully refrain from behaviors that would benefit them.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:34
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The Kingfish posted:So it is an analogy. Not robbing = not being racist. Its a terrible analogy for reasons that should be obvious. No, it's not an analogy. Lying will get you nowhere.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:49
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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. In other words, do nothing about racism and remain silent. You're being very revealing.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:03
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The Kingfish posted:When somebody says something racist to me in a discussion I tell them that I think they're wrong and I explain why that is. Yes, you like to treat racism as legitimate, we are all aware.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:07
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Tone matters. If you talk about racism in a monotone, people will understand it to be as important as accounting paperwork. If you talk about racism with normal human emotions, people will understand it as something other people feel things about.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:09
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If you just jump through these hoops I might consider cops murdering small children to be wrong, or at least pretend to.- One of "The Kingfish's" conservative friends.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:13
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Frosted Flake posted:Here's my call-out story: Then they all started beating her up while chanting "Kill All Men", I assume.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:15
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thechosenone posted:All things considered Brainiac, Do you really think that discrimination against black people does not come back to harm everyone? Obviously someone benefits from it. To think otherwise is to be willfully stupid.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:19
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thechosenone posted:But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people? Why would you think otherwise? Why else would people continue to maintain structural racism if it obviously hurt them? Are white people all suicidal?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:23
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VikingSkull posted:Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. No, poor people aren't mentally deficient.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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rudatron posted:How many stories of 'lovely activists' is it going to take, before people entertain the idea that something may be wrong with activist culture, in particular, the way it's essentially been 'professionalized'? Or are we going to pretend this problem cannot exist, ever? There's a whole heap of difference between swallowing right-wing propaganda whole and giving it its due 0.3 second consideration..
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Jan 10, 2017 19:26
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thechosenone posted:The Idea would be that they don't realize that it does, and that some of it doesn't happen consciously So, it doesn't hurt them, then, and does benefit them. Gee! What a notion. All this poo poo about white innocence is plainly an effort to reify white supremacy and prevent people from talking about racism.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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rudatron posted:Do you think Frosted Flake was here just to spread Right Wing Propaganda? I mean there are literal video examples and news stories of the kind of toxic activism being referred to, is that all just propaganda? At what point do you start challenging your assumptions here? Imagine if this post was about crime statistics instead.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:30
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Use of phrases like "professional activists" merely reiterates that this is the consequence of right-wing propaganda: people just start automatically filing things according to this narrative, and they decide to ignore dissenting beliefs, and categorize anyone with passion as crazy or manipulative.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:35
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In the real world, people laugh, cry, and rant. Acting like a robot is actually the freakish thing to do, not expressing emotion.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:37
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rudatron posted:You're going to have to lead me through this one. Your post is about how anecdotal events naturally fit your statistical and structural narrative, much like how racists use high-profile crimes and crime rate statistics to argue black people are subhuman.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:38
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the trump tutelage posted:Intent matters. Nobody who is primarily motivated by resentment and a need to punish can be trusted with the power that they're seeking. So, the problem is that people are engaging in wrongthink, and best of all, one that's vague enough that any expression of anger or frustration can earn you a trip to a reeducation camp where you will be taught to like injustice by Director Trump Tutelage. I see.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:19
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The only good thing about reactionaries is that they're really not very good at concealing their desire to destroy justice and impose injustice.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:30
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The same reason you wouldn't beat and rob someone.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:01
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thechosenone posted:What would that be? You don't know? I feel sorry for the people around you.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:07
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TomViolence posted:I mean you say that, but there are people I would feel entirely justified in beating and robbing. Like slave owners for instance. I wanted to avoid repeating myself from earlier in the thread where I used murder as an example.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:09
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thechosenone posted:Indeed, so do I, please tell me why not to beat and rob someone so that I may become a better person. Let's start on honesty first.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:12
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thechosenone posted:Please tell me why it is wrong to beat and rob someone, surely you can find it in your heart to explain to me this reason. Imagine, if you will, the greatest possible pain you can think of, the deepest misery, the most existential form of suffering. Now imagine something ten times worse than that. In the Hell to which you will be condemned for dishonesty, such a sensation will be like a warm bath after a relaxing dinner and a good movie, on an all-expenses paid vacation, after a hell of a good gently caress. Your daily existence will be at least a thousand times more painful. And worst of all, the angels of torture will ensure that you know with all your mind and heart and soul that you are only getting what you deserve for being a jackass in a thread online.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:22
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thechosenone posted:Alright, I am imagining that, What else must I do to understand why it is wrong to beat and rob someone, (which I've come under the impression will tell me why a white person should not be racist as well)? All you need to do is continue living and when you die you will suffer all the suffering of everyone that has ever lived for every second you thought this was clever. This will repeat endlessly until you understand why it was wrong for you to do, and then your actual sentence can begin. It normally starts at a million years for just what you've done in this thread but you will probably earn a couple trillion.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:29
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Do you think most people are secret murderers? I don't see what your perpetual argument about how people who are alive and not dead persecute you for saying racial slurs has to do with anything.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:35
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thechosenone posted:I must admit I am a complete and utter idiot, and that it is amazing that have made it as far as I have. Please, could you have pity on this disgusting fool and explain to him why it is wrong to beat and rob someone? I know it must be true, but surely I would understand more, perhaps even be able to understand why a white person should not be racist, if you would be so kind as to explain it to me, burdensome as it is. I'll tell you if you provide me with your Social Security Number, credit card information, and a cool ten thou in cash. No coins, please.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:37
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thechosenone posted:Upon my word, tarnished as it may be, I will do so. So, please, liberate me from my ignorance, why shouldn't someone beat and rob someone? You gotta pay to play, kid. The little misunderstanding will also cost you your bank account numbers.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:40
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I've never been persecuted in any meaningful way so I'm not sure where this response is coming from. However you seemed to be drawing some kind of equivalence between Murder, Violence and Racism, so perhaps you'd like to expand on it? I don't know what those capitalized words refer to.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:55
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