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Frosted Flake posted:Anecdotal but I like talking politics more with Conservatives because they will calmly and rationally try to make their point, and if I disagree they will make a counterpoint or respectfully agree to disagree. This but the exact opposite.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:28
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The Kingfish posted:Maybe don't focus on "calling people out" and focus on your own behavior instead? Just a thought. Is interpreting this as "don't ever try to change society" overreaching or...?
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Jan 10, 2017 19:02
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The Kingfish posted:I'm not even being snarky. It is extremely important thing to think about how your actions are coming off towards the people you are interacting with. If you're a white cishet male and know the codespeak of white cishet males, then yes, tone matters. Barring that, outnumbering your opponents matter.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:07
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The Kingfish posted:Actually, anyone can have a productive discussion with anyone else who is willing. The word you're looking for is "theoretically", not "actually".
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Jan 10, 2017 19:11
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That's the literal concept of White Privilege, guys.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:24
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VikingSkull posted:Some poor white guy in a trailer in Arkansas doesn't have time to think about whether or not he benefits from the intangibles of a racist system. He's just trying to figure out how he's going to eat dinner. thechosenone posted:But do you think that, ultimately as a whole, white people benefit on average from discrimination against black people? The concept of White Privilege is exactly about the examples you're trying to muster.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:25
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You don't have to try and convince assholes. You just have to outnumber them. Last November indicates that you have to outnumber them by more than 3m though, bummer.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:33
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thechosenone posted:I personally think that we do not benefit from a racist system. I would even go so far as to think that white people, even rich white people would be better off without racism. Then you truly are The Chosen One.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:45
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thechosenone posted:Okay. Do you agree with me? No.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:48
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thechosenone posted:But would you disagree with the notion that African American's have the ability to contribute to our nation and that racism stifles their ability to do so? Ok you're playing the maieutics game. Well, I'm game, Socrates! Be aware so that I've got a trap card up my sleeve... To answer your question, no. I do not disagree with your latest statement.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:56
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thechosenone posted:So Would you say that, from a stand point limited to practicality alone, that there would be no reason for a white person to not be racist? to say nothing of morality or anything else. No, I would not. I would say however that the elusive "average American" would indeed benefit form a racism free utopia, but that the white people subset would not necessarily benefit from such a situation. In more mathematicals terms, a higher average doesn't mean higher values overall. Also I would point out that limiting our discussion to practicality alone distance ourselves from the real world.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:11
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thechosenone posted:So, to confirm, your answer to " from a stand point limited to practicality alone, that there would be no reason for a white person to not be racist?' is no? It must be because English is my second language, I'll try again. A white person can rationally have reasons to be racist, because they can rationnally expect that elevating the status of POC will lower theirs. And, but evidently not guaranteed, they can be right! Meaning that from an average standpoint, like GDP per capita or incarcerations rates, crime, etc, society as a whole might be better off but white people might not necessarily be. To which I added in a paraphrase that they can also have irrationnal, emotional and/or cultural beliefs&traditions to oppose to elevate the status of POCs. This however was previously excluded from our conversation by the use of the word "practical".
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Jan 10, 2017 20:33
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thechosenone posted:So, to specify more, would you say that the average white person has more reason to be racist, or not racist? From a practical standpoint of course. From a practical standpoint, a white person can make the case that, hypothetically speaking, he could either benefit or not from the perpetuation of racism. From which he can lean to being more or less racist himself. What I'm hinting at is that the general welfare argument is not a good angle of attack to tackle racism in America or anywhere else, IMHO.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:43
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thechosenone posted:so would you say that the benefit to white people as a whole would be positive, negative, or that you do not know? I would say that I do not know. I would also add that noone can reasonably know, so it holds very little convincing power. To conclude, and since we're talking about positive or negative benefits, that is to say a change in status, I would posit that whatever hypothetical negative shift in white people welfare and material living conditions would plateau at some point in the future, of course. Not crash down. However this last belief of mine I'm wary of having it ring true to a non-negligible part of the white population.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:54
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thechosenone posted:So then, what reason would you give to white people for not being racist? Because racism is tragically bad. It's bad in a Darth-Vader-in-Star-Wars bad. It's bad in a way a 4 year-old can understand. I'm sorry to use such a simple and manichean - one would say naive - argument. But racism is simply awful. Now, of course I realize the futility of such a talking point in this day and age. It's extremely hard pull someone out of the poisoned well of racism. However it's still feasible to stop someone from falling down. To conclude once more: It's my belief that the simple "racism=bad", the emotional argument, is more effective than rational ones. It's also my belief that we whites should waste no time convincing bona fide racists. We might use some time to openly ridiculize them when and where we outnumber them. And also always remember in the back of our minds that violence is sometimes the answer... But in fine the best argument is that racism is just the worst.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:09
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thechosenone posted:So it is so easy to comprehend why racism is bad that even a four year old may understand, I really am stupid. Could you explain it to me? I'm out! 
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Jan 10, 2017 21:14
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thechosenone posted:Please explain why, it would surely take little of your time, and it would surely help me to understand better your position. please gift me this knowledge, I know I incredibly dense, but surely if you explain it will make sense to me! Dude, chill! We did the maieutics dance, now it's done. Time to pack and go home.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:21
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stone cold posted:Can you cite specific toxic behaviors in nebulous "these movements" that aren't 100% made up by you? What do you get when you get two marxists together? A party. What do you get when you get three marxists together? A split. A well-known joke about leftists and their inability to work together to achieve anything. But if you're asking about POC or feminists specifically, no clue.
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Jan 11, 2017 23:05
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Squashing Machine posted:The Democratic party, if we can even call it all that socially progressive anymore? You're reaching, dude. The Democratic party is more interested in votes than in any kind of purity, intellectual or otherwise.
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Jan 11, 2017 23:12
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rudatron posted:All I doing is inverting tesseration's logic. His claim was that, since talking doesn't solve anything, we're seceding that agency to the abstract trends and forces of social pressure, that absolves you of acting respectfully. Even leaving the first, really dubious assumption intact, that talking doesn't solve anything, what is social pressure but the aggregate of individual actions? Worse, what makes you think acting like a douchebag is going to pressure someone in the direction you want? If they have a backbone, they're not going to take that lying down, they're gonna react against you, find others who share that same animosity of you, and work with them. A protest is not a sum of individual actions. I mean, it is if you want to be pedantic about it. But it's not in the way that not every single person in the protest has had to bridge the gap between racist and not-racist or not-caring and not-racist or had to be taught about antiracism. They just have to show up in sufficient numbers (which can be an extremely small number when compared to the general population) to exert political pressure. And if it doesn't work then they can ramp it up, the very same people, until something gives.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:30
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Then again, winning elections is not the end-all-be-all of activism.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:52
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I disagree that you need your own candidates to foster your issues. A show of force through means of numbers and disruption can be enough to make elected officials consider you. Now obviously they can consider you... a threat to the state and send the cavalry up your rear end but if we can do it this way in my corner of the Western hemisphere I don't see what's stopping you in yours. Unless America really is some other beast entirely, in which case all hope is lost for the left, rudatron style. Pinch Me Im Meming fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 15, 2017 |
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Jan 15, 2017 20:08
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 13:17 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I've actually done off-forums poo poo with Jenner and I'm pretty certain she isn't actually that particular permabanned loon. The plot thickens...
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Jan 15, 2017 20:49
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