Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012
Idk about the Ender's Game comparison, because it's a story very much about stolen innocence. Tanya, is far from that. She's trying to game the system, and unfortunately gets way more than she bargained for.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice
It's a very surface level comparison yeah.

But there are some similar scenes. Like the conversation between Anderson and Bean in Shadow plays off kinda similarly.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

I can give you a little bit on current history based on the book. Youve got the main super state "the federation" in the middle surrounded by a load of smaller states, in particular france. The federation and the surrounding states disagree on borders, with the federation using military superiority to claim a border several miles larger than the surrounding nations think it is.

Prior to Tanya joining the military there were a few minor border skirmishes but nothing serious, the kind of things that the nation's don't acknowledge on an official level. Once Tanya joins these skirmishes and aggressions start increasing. It is implied that the outside nations are acting irrationally (basically that being x is specifically twisting the situation to cause conditions for war).

The battle where Tanya gets "injured" is chronologically the start of the war as similar situations occur across the whole of the border and war is declared between the federation and its neighbours.

As of episode 4 it's still very much a borders thing that hasn't really affected much in any nation. This is what Tanya has changed. Not only has she screwed herself over as an individual, she has defined the concept of a world war and suggested that the federation gets properly aggressive in pursuing it.

In trying to impress her boss, she has triggered the events that will change the war.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Well I say it hasn't affected much. The federation is on ration cards as they play border defence on all fronts but everyone still has a decent looking quality of life.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS
I don't know how much of it is the original author's POV and how much of it is Tanya's character (although at some point she did make mention to the Chicago school so I wonder...) but the idea that people are rational actors is a fairly modern one and she keeps trying to apply cold hard corporate logic leading to unexpected factors plus the "irrationality" of the people in this period throwing her plans off course. If it really is supposed to be Being X influencing other nations to become more belligerent it's not really a necessary plot point for the writer to include because nations even nowadays do not act completely "rationally" as uh, highlighted by very recent events.

It's a big weakness of modern fiction writing about the past where for some reason the writer always assumes that people in power are rational actors exploiting this and that to achieve their goals when for the vast majority of human history no, leaders really did believe that God wanted them to go and kill millions of unbelievers and that they weren't just coldly manipulating religion to their ends and so forth.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice
As an addendum The July Crisis was pretty much the platonic embodiment of everyone acting in all sorts of irrational and contradictory ways.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Eej posted:

I don't know how much of it is the original author's POV and how much of it is Tanya's character (although at some point she did make mention to the Chicago school so I wonder...) but the idea that people are rational actors is a fairly modern one and she keeps trying to apply cold hard corporate logic leading to unexpected factors plus the "irrationality" of the people in this period throwing her plans off course. If it really is supposed to be Being X influencing other nations to become more belligerent it's not really a necessary plot point for the writer to include because nations even nowadays do not act completely "rationally" as uh, highlighted by very recent events.

It's a big weakness of modern fiction writing about the past where for some reason the writer always assumes that people in power are rational actors exploiting this and that to achieve their goals when for the vast majority of human history no, leaders really did believe that God wanted them to go and kill millions of unbelievers and that they weren't just coldly manipulating religion to their ends and so forth.
That's an interesting point, and I should mention that its me jumping to the conclusion mostly because this setting has been specifically manufactured to make Tanya fight in a war.


I should post the next block of text tomorrow, the one wherein the salesman dies

Futaba Anzu
May 6, 2011

GROSS BOY

is the laid off guy the glasses guy with blue hair

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Eej posted:

I don't know how much of it is the original author's POV and how much of it is Tanya's character (although at some point she did make mention to the Chicago school so I wonder...) but the idea that people are rational actors is a fairly modern one and she keeps trying to apply cold hard corporate logic leading to unexpected factors plus the "irrationality" of the people in this period throwing her plans off course. If it really is supposed to be Being X influencing other nations to become more belligerent it's not really a necessary plot point for the writer to include because nations even nowadays do not act completely "rationally" as uh, highlighted by very recent events.

It's a big weakness of modern fiction writing about the past where for some reason the writer always assumes that people in power are rational actors exploiting this and that to achieve their goals when for the vast majority of human history no, leaders really did believe that God wanted them to go and kill millions of unbelievers and that they weren't just coldly manipulating religion to their ends and so forth.

I saw that as more Tanya's specific character, rather than author suggesting the world was that way. Tanya's a total sociopath and doesn't instinctively understand that other people have desires beyond their own self interest, so of course she blames them for doing something she can't see as anything but stupid.

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry

hoobajoo posted:

I saw that as more Tanya's specific character, rather than author suggesting the world was that way. Tanya's a total sociopath and doesn't instinctively understand that other people have desires beyond their own self interest, so of course she blames them for doing something she can't see as anything but stupid.

She seems like that but she also sent her friend back to the rear so even if she can't admit it she is capable of emotion like that. Her face still weirds me out though.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


drilldo squirt posted:

She seems like that but she also sent her friend back to the rear so even if she can't admit it she is capable of emotion like that. Her face still weirds me out though.

She rationalised that as just trying to look like a good CO and a good person to increase her chances for promotion and I'm inclined to believe that. Kinda wish that was called up during the dinner after her "bad reputation" was mentioned.

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

She rationalised that as just trying to look like a good CO and a good person to increase her chances for promotion and I'm inclined to believe that. Kinda wish that was called up during the dinner after her "bad reputation" was mentioned.

She seems kinda hosed up emotionally so I wouldn't count on her being a reliable narrator. Though I might be giving anime to much credit.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Thinking that Tanya is a sociopath is probably closest to the truth without being the truth.

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

drilldo squirt posted:

She seems like that but she also sent her friend back to the rear so even if she can't admit it she is capable of emotion like that. Her face still weirds me out though.

It's a bit ambiguous whether she has any genuine attachment to Viktoriya, but my personal take is because Tanya bases her self-worth on doing her job well, and this is an extension of that. She doesn't care about her as a human being, but in protecting her and helping her move up, she fulfills the role she's supposed to play in the military. Tanya's also obsessed with organizational rules, and it follows that if bad soldiers should be punished (read: killed), good soldiers should be rewarded.

I'd say the most affection Tanya has for Viktoriya is acknowledging that she ended up being an obedient and hardworking subordinate, which is exactly what gets you promoted in Japanese salaryman culture.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

The salaryman had friends and interests outside of work. I'd say that Tanya is probably interested in her and has some low level of attachment, but they definitely aren't friends at this stage.

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Namtab posted:

The salaryman had friends and interests outside of work. I'd say that Tanya is probably interested in her and has some low level of attachment, but they definitely aren't friends at this stage.

Did he? I didn't see anything in ep. 2 to imply he had a non-work life at all. Or is this some light novel knowledge?

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

I already posted it. Basically he's a closet otaku who made friends with similar interests as him. He was a big believer in separating his work life and free time, choosing to complete jobs efficiently and to the letter of what was requested (without thought for creativity or emotions) in order to maximise free time. That's probably the reason for the extreme punishment in the officer training camp, she had a disobedient subordinate and punished him in the most efficient way the rules allowed for.

The book mentions in the scene where he meets X that he has a lawyer friend he plays fps games with.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012

hoobajoo posted:

Did he? I didn't see anything in ep. 2 to imply he had a non-work life at all. Or is this some light novel knowledge?

Yeah they gave us the bare minimum so far. I hope they don't go further into his previous life unless it's about to have a direct bearing on events in Tanya's world.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

I'm only watching the shorts and some clips but both are good.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010



The episodes so far have been pretty good although the first episode doesn't really do much to give it you an impression of what the story is about. It's also one of the top selling anime this season just below cash grab gacha game anime and konosuba.

Pacing is really strong after the first episode, everything flows really well and your constantly guessing how Tanya is going to gently caress himself or how being x is going troll him

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer
Selling? In preorders?

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Cao Ni Ma posted:

The episodes so far have been pretty good although the first episode doesn't really do much to give it you an impression of what the story is about. It's also one of the top selling anime this season just below cash grab gacha game anime and konosuba.

Pacing is really strong after the first episode, everything flows really well and your constantly guessing how Tanya is going to gently caress himself or how being x is going troll him

The first episode was a pretty bold choice; if you watch the second episode it works great as a package, but just the first episode gives you none of Tanya's inner life, which is to me what makes the show stand out. I can totally imagine someone watching just the first episode, not getting what the fuss is about, and missing out.

This is a problem Japanese doesn't have, but I don't know whether Tanya should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. I can kinda see the argument from both sides.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010



Mordaedil posted:

Selling? In preorders?

Yeah preorder ratings basically

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

hoobajoo posted:

The first episode was a pretty bold choice; if you watch the second episode it works great as a package, but just the first episode gives you none of Tanya's inner life, which is to me what makes the show stand out. I can totally imagine someone watching just the first episode, not getting what the fuss is about, and missing out.

This is a problem Japanese doesn't have, but I don't know whether Tanya should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. I can kinda see the argument from both sides.

I don't think that's a problem worth focusing on, but I'd say to see what self identifying pronoun Tanya uses

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Namtab posted:

I don't think that's a problem worth focusing on, but I'd say to see what self identifying pronoun Tanya uses

She won't, Japanese doesn't have gendered pronouns. I agree it's not a major thing, though.

darkgray
Dec 20, 2005

My best pose facing the morning sun!

hoobajoo posted:

She won't, Japanese doesn't have gendered pronouns. I agree it's not a major thing, though.

Er, some might argue that kare and kanojo would be fairly equivalent to he and she?

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

hoobajoo posted:

The first episode was a pretty bold choice; if you watch the second episode it works great as a package, but just the first episode gives you none of Tanya's inner life, which is to me what makes the show stand out. I can totally imagine someone watching just the first episode, not getting what the fuss is about, and missing out.

This is a problem Japanese doesn't have, but I don't know whether Tanya should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. I can kinda see the argument from both sides.

It was a pretty dumb choice and I'm sure it might have lost a lot of viewers at the cost of... well, they didn't really get anything by showing it aside from essentially war porn.

Also I don't see what's wrong with just saying "she" for Tanya. It's reincarnation, it's supposed to happen all the time and you don't carry your gender with you when you are reborn. Unless her past life suddenly gets thrust back into the focus (I hope not).

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe

darkgray posted:

Er, some might argue that kare and kanojo would be fairly equivalent to he and she?

Yeah Japan does have gendered pronouns. They're just less common

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer

hoobajoo posted:

She won't, Japanese doesn't have gendered pronouns. I agree it's not a major thing, though.

lol

Watashi, boku and ore sure aren't gender pronouns, no sirree.

I believe Tanya refers to self as watashi, which is the least helpful. I guess I could re-watch to see if a boku sneaks in there.

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Eej posted:

It was a pretty dumb choice and I'm sure it might have lost a lot of viewers at the cost of... well, they didn't really get anything by showing it aside from essentially war porn.

Also I don't see what's wrong with just saying "she" for Tanya. It's reincarnation, it's supposed to happen all the time and you don't carry your gender with you when you are reborn. Unless her past life suddenly gets thrust back into the focus (I hope not).

I like the choice from an artistic viewpoint, the first episode is essentially showing you how the world views Tanya, and the contrast between that and the reveal of Tanya sees the world is an interesting framing device. But as a marketing decision it seems awfully dangerous, though from what I hear the show is doing well, so I guess it worked out.

darkgray posted:

Er, some might argue that kare and kanojo would be fairly equivalent to he and she?

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking of them as pronouns per se, but I guess they basically are. Though at any rate, Tanya or Being X are never going to use those to describe her anyway, and they're the only two that really count for this assessment.

I don't think either pronoun is wrong, fwiw, though I find 'she' more natural since the story's emphasis is clearly on her current life and identity. Plus, Tanya exists by following society's rules and accepting her place therein it, so she'd probably internalize her new gender relatively quickly.

Mordaedil posted:

lol

Watashi, boku and ore sure aren't gender pronouns, no sirree.

I believe Tanya refers to self as watashi, which is the least helpful. I guess I could re-watch to see if a boku sneaks in there.

They aren't explicitly male or female, boku and ore are just less likely to be used by women. Plenty of tomboy characters have used boku and tough lady badasses have used ore without thereby claiming to be men.

hoobajoo fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jan 30, 2017

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

"According to Wikipedia" there is a black hole that emits zionist hawking radiation where my brain should have been

I really should just shut the fuck up and stop posting forever
College Slice
I refer to her as she while Tanya generally does seem to still somewhat self-identifies as her previous salaryman life at the same time he seems very solidly the type of person to just roll with new opportunities; objecting to being dressed like a doll can be interpreted as also largely stemming as being a character who generally just dislikes anything that isn't purely utilitarian in usage.

Futaba Anzu
May 6, 2011

GROSS BOY

Mordaedil posted:

lol

Watashi, boku and ore sure aren't gender pronouns, no sirree.

I believe Tanya refers to self as watashi, which is the least helpful. I guess I could re-watch to see if a boku sneaks in there.

they're way more related to manners than explicitly gendered
watashi is a catch all for politeness, boku signifies naivety or inferiority, ore means you think you got a big dick, and watakushi is big dick politeness

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

I'm double ore

Futaba Anzu
May 6, 2011

GROSS BOY

im boke as gently caress bro

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

What the heck!

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer

hoobajoo posted:

They aren't explicitly male or female, boku and ore are just less likely to be used by women. Plenty of tomboy characters have used boku and tough lady badasses have used ore without thereby claiming to be men.
Right, that's the point, isn't it? You just said it didn't exist. It doesn't exist in the same manner as in English, but that wasn't what you said.

Futaba Anzu posted:

they're way more related to manners than explicitly gendered
watashi is a catch all for politeness, boku signifies naivety or inferiority, ore means you think you got a big dick, and watakushi is big dick politeness
I just want to link that one page from Pandora Hearts omake.

Ore, ore, ore, ore, ore, ore.

hoobajoo
Jun 2, 2004

Mordaedil posted:

Right, that's the point, isn't it? You just said it didn't exist. It doesn't exist in the same manner as in English, but that wasn't what you said.

I think I'm just using a more technical or specific definition of 'gendered' than you are. At any rate, to clarify what I meant, the larger point is it's very natural to consistently refer to someone in Japanese in ways that leave gender undefined, so the problem of whether we should call Tanya 'he' or 'she' is one that's only a problem outside of its native language, which is interesting.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer
Agreed, languages are fun and interesting.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Fun things about languages aside, I don't want to talk about Tanya gender identityw

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Emmideer
Oct 20, 2011

Lovely night, no?
Grimey Drawer
Would you say Tanya is more of a Hitler or a Goebbels?

  • Locked thread