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c'mon guys look at their loving uniforms This is very clearly not a 20th century army Guy Goodbody fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 19:37
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I don't think you guys get how much change warfare went through during WW1. Look at how French soldiers dressed at the beginning. Bright red pants. Shiny brass buttons. a loving cloth cap. Now look at the French uniform from the end of WW1.  There was so much new stuff happening, from tanks to huge advances in artillery to airplanes to gas to barbed wire to submarines, not a single army started World War 1 actually prepared for it. Look at this actual loving photograph from 1914 of loving Cuirassiers proudly riding out to get mowed down like assholes by machine guns 
Guy Goodbody fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 19:45
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Guy Goodbody posted:c'mon guys look at their loving uniforms I beg to differ, France 1914.  e: ^^^^ GODDDAMNIT.
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Feb 4, 2017 19:46
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Raenir Salazar posted:I beg to differ, France 1914. Pretty sure 1914 wasn't part of the 21st century.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:04
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They're wearing red shirts so that you can't tell when they're bleeding. The guy giving orders is wearing yellow pants so that
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Feb 4, 2017 20:09
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WWI wasn't even the end of mounted cavalry anyway. Armies loving loved horses and even tried to use them in WWII like loving idiots. It is amazing how much of military history is dudes refusing to accept that their old rear end tactics and equipment just aren't up to snuff anymore. German Cavalry, 1935  The last US Cavalry charge was against the goddamn Japanese in the loving Philippines. 
Gyges fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 20:13
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TBF using dudes on horseback in a limited role still made sense in a lot of places where paved roads and railroads were rare and vehicles designed for off road operation weren't available.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:19
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Horses were used a lot in WW2, just outside of the main fronts. Overall they were much easier to maintain in rougher areas than vehicles (no need to transport fuel or tires when they can forage, for instance) and when used right could even outfight the earlier tanks.
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Feb 4, 2017 20:30
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Mokinokaro posted:Horses were used a lot in WW2, just outside of the main fronts. Overall they were much easier to maintain in rougher areas than vehicles (no need to transport fuel or tires when they can forage, for instance) and when used right could even outfight the earlier tanks. Yeah, but they typically weren't charged through barbed wire at machine guns. Nobody said that all military stopped using horses period during WW1 and that's why there aren't any horses today. But WW1 certainly wasn't kind to armies that still relied on cavalry charges as a common tactic Guy Goodbody fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 20:46
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darkgray posted:Pretty sure 1914 wasn't part of the 21st century. I thought he meant 20th. But yeah we're going to see rapid advancements in warfare very soon with Tanya acting as the foot stomping on the gasp pedal since she being well read knows what tactics and advances ended up catching on. quote:or the more complex machinery to have wing-mounted guns and you have the alternative of just using flying people with guns that likely can move faster and present a lesser target than planes, it makes sense they won't use planes for air superiority. If the power of their spells is limited to their equipment to act as either an amplifier or stabilizer, or as a capacity to store magical energy and act as a conduit without exploding; then maybe there's also a use for manned heavier than air flight for mages. Imagine a AC-130 with a crew of five mages manning it; or a crew of two mages in a A-10 Warthog? There's probably a point where the relative lesser mobility of having an aircraft shell is compensated by a severalfold increase in firepower. Maybe they can get those gems to the point they can reach jet aircraft performance envelopes but I'd figure for those speeds and missions if magic works in this universe where they can combine it with machinery you probably still want aircraft and tanks.
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Feb 4, 2017 21:14
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Raenir Salazar posted:If the power of their spells is limited to their equipment to act as either an amplifier or stabilizer, or as a capacity to store magical energy and act as a conduit without exploding; then maybe there's also a use for manned heavier than air flight for mages. Since mages seem like they'd run circles around the existing planes and tear them apart, they probably can only be used once air superiority is firmly established. To use planes otherwise, they would need to be heavy enough gunships to withstand mage fire, but that technology doesn't seem to exist yet, and being at war means they need to see a quick return on their research, so it's probably not feasible. Assuming the military leaders would even think of that as a possibility in the first place. hoobajoo fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 21:32
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I think it all depends on how rare they are; the loses in the WWII airwar were quite horrific to the point that you might have been safer being leg infantry. They have AA defences specifically against Mages in universe and advances in aircraft were fast enough in real life at this time that I don't really see it to be an issue; they don't need to be expected to fight Mages on an equal playing field; they just need to be able to do the job when mages aren't present; which could very well be extremely often. B-17's and Lancasters against Fw-190's or Zero's is probably a good analogy here; you have high casualties but you keep going with what you got because it's better than nothing and eventually after all that sacrifice you have the B-29. e: Also I'm not entirely convinced if Mages are faster/more agile than monoplane fighters of the late 30's/early 40's (At the performance their gems currently have); it might not be a pleasant engagement for the Spitfire but if you have 300 Spitfires those 10 Mages might have to break off the engagement because they're probably bound to take unacceptable losses. It's interesting if an arms race between the performance from those gems and the performance of aeroplane engines and chassis design makes it in as A Thing. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 21:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:I thought he meant 20th. But yeah we're going to see rapid advancements in warfare very soon with Tanya acting as the foot stomping on the gasp pedal since she being well read knows what tactics and advances ended up catching on. Yeah, that's what I meant. There were a lot of typos in those posts. I just get so mad when people don't understand how much the rapid technological change of the early 20th century took armies used to fighting Napoleonic style wars unprepared.
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Feb 4, 2017 22:01
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I interrupt to go back to thishoobajoo posted:I think it's more that Tanya recognized a surprise attack would be most effective in disrupting their enemies, but being a bureaucrat at heart, she still needs to follow the proper procedures. So she found a way to de facto commit a war crime while still technically following international law. Took a different reading to the second "plays too much by the book" line, being that he was following a strict strategic thinking- take the military advantage of a sneak attack when you can - when she thought it was important to adjust for the greater political ruleset. Though it's definitely ironic given the bullshit she does
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Feb 4, 2017 22:02
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At present the most firepower we've seen from the average mage is that of a normal artillery shell. Maybe planes are better for more destructive roles
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Feb 4, 2017 22:14
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hoobajoo posted:Since mages seem like they'd run circles around the existing planes and tear them apart, they probably can only be used once air superiority is firmly established. To use planes otherwise, they would need to be heavy enough gunships to withstand mage fire, but that technology doesn't seem to exist yet, and being at war means they need to see a quick return on their research, so it's probably not feasible. Assuming the military leaders would even think of that as a possibility in the first place. In the books there's a big focus on altitude mattering and the enemy mages being unable to effectively fight Tanya when she's 2000ft over their usual ceiling. Mages are "stronger" than planes in a fight but planes can fly above the effective range of regular mages and ignore them. The only niche that WWII planes have really lost to the mages is close air support.
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Feb 4, 2017 22:17
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Probably not a warcrime yet based on the timeline Geneva convention at this point prohibited ill treatment of the dead but says nothing about boobytraps yes I looked that up
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Feb 4, 2017 22:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think it all depends on how rare they are; the loses in the WWII airwar were quite horrific to the point that you might have been safer being leg infantry. They have AA defences specifically against Mages in universe and advances in aircraft were fast enough in real life at this time that I don't really see it to be an issue; they don't need to be expected to fight Mages on an equal playing field; they just need to be able to do the job when mages aren't present; which could very well be extremely often. No doubt another decade of plane research would allow them to do much better against mages, and if this world has a WWII, that would probably be a large change. But to elaborate on my point about needing a quick return on research, the army is currently stretched thin and needs to end the war quickly, so rather than work on more transformative research to allow planes to take on new roles, it would produce more results in the short term to focus on improving planes in roles they can already be good at, like bombing. Though maybe I'm overestimating the practical cost of research projects like this. I would be excited at the very least to see planes being escorted by mages as the war advances, and it would be cool to see the two clash against each other.
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Feb 4, 2017 22:29
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Desuwa posted:In the books there's a big focus on altitude mattering and the enemy mages being unable to effectively fight Tanya when she's 2000ft over their usual ceiling. Mages are "stronger" than planes in a fight but planes can fly above the effective range of regular mages and ignore them. The only niche that WWII planes have really lost to the mages is close air support. Yeah but this is WW1. They have a service ceiling higher than say a Sopwith Camel at the start of the war, so Tanya and her battalion have parity with WW1 planes meaning all of their roles other than level bombing are fulfilled, and WW1 lacked too many effective bombers. They existed but were pretty crap (WW1 aircraft.txt). We don't know about the cap on mage technology, but for this war we really oughtn't see any relevant non-mage air power. hoobajoo posted:I would be excited at the very least to see planes being escorted by mages as the war advances, and it would be cool to see the two clash against each other. And this. This would be great.
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Feb 4, 2017 22:56
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Tanya was moving at about 200m/s during her big fight in the first episode which puts her at the same level as some of the fastest airplanes of WW2 and she's way more agile given how easily she can hop around in the air to change direction and dodge poo poo.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:01
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Would there really be a lot of research into planes when you already have flying mages? Even if you want to there's the usual problem of the big established force not wanting to give up any influence or prestige so they'll do everything in their power to prevent anything that could challenge them regardless of the actual consequences. There's probably a lot of people who would consider planes a waste of time and resources since mages are clearly superior for aerial combat too.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Yeah but this is WW1. They have a service ceiling higher than say a Sopwith Camel at the start of the war, so Tanya and her battalion have parity with WW1 planes meaning all of their roles other than level bombing are fulfilled, and WW1 lacked too many effective bombers. They existed but were pretty crap (WW1 aircraft.txt). We don't know about the cap on mage technology, but for this war we really oughtn't see any relevant non-mage air power. Yeah but for whatever reason the planes are more advanced than aviation at start of WWI at least to the point where, in the novels, it's brought up that planes have a significantly higher service ceilings. Maybe not full on WWII but definitely more advanced than the start of WWI, they've even shown an all-metal aircraft which I think puts the tech past the end of WWI. e: Not that I expect planes to be relevant to the story either, but it's been shown in the novels that they're still relevant in the setting. Desuwa fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 23:14
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Tanya was moving at about 200m/s during her big fight in the first episode which puts her at the same level as some of the fastest airplanes of WW2 and she's way more agile given how easily she can hop around in the air to change direction and dodge poo poo. Now Imagine if they gave her goggles.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:14
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You could handwave that by saying mages use a force field goggles cantrip.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:18
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WWII fighters could barely hit their targets, it was like 1 hit for every 1000 rounds fired, I have to imagine trying to hit a human sized target that is not bound by any of the limitations of an aircraft (stalling, diving, turn radius etc) would basically be impossible.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:25
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no goggles is just an anime choice
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Feb 4, 2017 23:27
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Poil posted:Would there really be a lot of research into planes when you already have flying mages? Even if you want to there's the usual problem of the big established force not wanting to give up any influence or prestige so they'll do everything in their power to prevent anything that could challenge them regardless of the actual consequences. There's probably a lot of people who would consider planes a waste of time and resources since mages are clearly superior for aerial combat too. Consider that the interrelation of the military-industrial complex, the army procurement office, capitalism, innovation and so on; plus other varied nations with their own and likely different availabilities of mages; plus political or ideological considerations. Basically we know for sure that Mages are rare; rare enough that putting together a battalion of 48 Mages was considered a fairly exceptional consideration that required approval at the highest levels of authority within the Empire's military structure and about 100 Mages were considered for it. Imagine Imperial Japan's training program for pilots; 2500 enrollees into the IJN airforce school in Saburo Sakai's memoirs, only about a few dozen would graduate to become carrier pilots; and extrapolate from there what if only 0.1%* of your military manpower is even eligible to be a Mage? (*Pulled from my butt, but imagine the scenario as a hypothetical). I don't get the sense that Mages are like a Type-Moon Mage Association-esque secret society here in universe that have a inclusive identity by virtue of being mages; but have an identity that is colinear with the comparable and pre-existing aristocratic order. It's difficult to imagine a "One Year Ban" situation in any country; the primary proof of concept innovations regarding aircraft were all done IRL by private individuals or corporations with military resources thrown at it shortly after. As long as it is mostly private companies (Like Curtis-Wright or Boeing) that are researching and developing them, does it really make sense for any military that sees some potential; even in the context of something that merely supplements the existing role of Mages to not throw some money at development? We already know they did develop aircraft for bombing missions, so clearly Mages aren't capable of handling all of the roles to that extent; the incentives and pressures of industrialized total war doesn't mean put less resources into finding and producing as many tools as possible to win the war, but more. I think the logic that was suggested of "Mages escorting aircraft" makes logical sense; it's better to have 50 aircraft and five mages than only five mages. Especially since Mages get tired. Viktoriya basically passed out and fell from the sky from over exertion from excessive use of her magic; I think for sure if/when the war escalates and they have to fight on multiple fronts the numbers game will fall very heavily on the need for machines. My thinking basically comes down to, it's better to have fifty aircraft do a bombing run and take 10-20 losses due to enemy mages and manage to take one or two down; than to have no aircraft doing no missions because you lack any available mages; and logically you'll find a way to marry the best of both worlds together. Some more evidence to consider; the Rhine theater is clearly the front that's occupying the Empire's main focus; but not only is it a stalemate (whether because the Empire is unwilling to do a total mobilization or some other reason); but Mages seem to be incredibly rare on that front aside from Tanya's firebrigade force; what mages already existed there seem to be grounded to boot, they were hiding out in the trenches instead of flying. Presumably more mages showed up once the "Main force" arrived but I think it paints a compelling picture that Mages aren't an organic attachment to field formations, but are parceled out piece meal according to the current situation and need. That does not strike me as a force that can effectively sustain the roles of air supremacy, close air support, tactical interdiction, strategic bombing or whatever; but seem more ad hoc. But I imagine we'll see more and what the pressures and capabilities are as the series continues. CrazySalamander posted:You could handwave that by saying mages use a force field goggles cantrip. I feel like that this has got to actually exist in the Player's Hand book somewhere.
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Feb 4, 2017 23:37
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48 mages are going to get whittled down so hard once not-England and not-Russia get into the fray.
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Feb 5, 2017 00:06
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To be fair once they're success is digested it'll be expanded to a Corps probably, so ~200-300 Mages? And then Tanya will be quickly promoted to General!  I imagine the funniest angry face will happen is when if she ever gets encircled or trapped and is promoted suddenly to Field Marshal... "To avoid capture", haha.
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Feb 5, 2017 00:18
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Desuwa posted:Yeah but for whatever reason the planes are more advanced than aviation at start of WWI at least to the point where, in the novels, it's brought up that planes have a significantly higher service ceilings. Maybe not full on WWII but definitely more advanced than the start of WWI, they've even shown an all-metal aircraft which I think puts the tech past the end of WWI. I'd assumed that was just a painted wooden transport plane, but since it is a WW1 technically in the interwar period (Isn't it 1923 or something?) we could really see anything. Eej posted:48 mages are going to get whittled down so hard once not-England and not-Russia get into the fray. Depends if they're issued visas or not.
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Feb 5, 2017 00:42
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It is 1923, but WWI as we know it never took place, or at least hasn't yet, but Tanya with her perspective recognizes that the same manner of cultivation is occurring. You could say that in this timeline the factors that caused our WWI to start were successfully prevented. There were a lot of moving limbs trying to prevent the war, but all attempts just failed. Just the addition of magic delivering a message instantly could have prevented the war. So what we are seeing in Tanya's world here is that things are starting now instead of earlier. I recommend people check out this channel for more information on WWI, because it provides great context for parallels to this show:
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Feb 5, 2017 01:11
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Mordaedil posted:It is 1923, but WWI as we know it never took place, or at least hasn't yet, but Tanya with her perspective recognizes that the same manner of cultivation is occurring. Except apparently the quotation from FMJ
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Feb 6, 2017 06:12
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Maybe I'm missing some pop culture context, but if my osmosis is informing me correctly, that's just an added bonus. If I missed your intended context, my apologies.
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Feb 6, 2017 15:13
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Guy Goodbody posted:"now"? Jon Benjamin has existed for decades. Can someone get me the number of his agent? I just wanna hear a few lines of H. Jon Benjamin as Shinji Ikari.
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Feb 6, 2017 16:50
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Accept my apology for my lack of recent book posting with this quote about Tanyas genderquote:Fortunately, our side started counter electronic warfare measures and communications returned to normal. But look, they came as expected. My instinct for detecting trouble is a hundred percent accurate. Is the intuition of a woman so accurate? Outward appearance aside, I have no plans of being a woman. What is this annoying feeling?
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Feb 6, 2017 18:51
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Namtab posted:Accept my apology for my lack of recent book posting with this quote about Tanyas gender Oh man, assuming Tanya lives long enough she's gonna have a fun time with puberty, annoying feelings indeed. 
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Feb 6, 2017 20:20
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I honestly feel like if reborn in another world with all my knowledge having my gender changed is probably an acceptable price to pay and it would be best to just roll with it; but other people might have gender being a much stronger aspect of their identity I guess.
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Feb 6, 2017 21:10
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I wouldn't have expected Mr. Accept Your Role to have strong feelings about it. He could just be saying he has no intention of adopting a woman's role in society, after all everyone in high command shown so far has been male and that's the job he's going for. Coming 2018, Saga of Tanya the Evil 2: Bulletproof Glass Ceiling. Edit: In the manga during the first meeting with Being X he pretty much outright states that being born male put him in a better social position. Dire Lemming fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 04:02
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Well, being reborn in another world is all Being X's doing, so the fact she is now a woman because of it probably becomes significantly more unacceptable due to that grudge
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Feb 7, 2017 04:01
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Dire Lemming posted:He could just be saying he has no intention of adopting a woman's role in society, Was my interpretation too. He's lucky to be in enough of a meritocracy to have that option, or maybe it's because he's a walking superweapon.
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Feb 7, 2017 07:46
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