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I am glad that Obama commuted Manning's sentence.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:27
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DoctorWhat posted:the whole concept of military court is an inhumane abomination Luckily, it's pretty easy to avoid.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:37
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SimonCat posted:PVT Manning released that information in a childish hissy fit. Nothing admirable about it. Well don't forget it was at the prompting of known informant Adrian Lamo that she copied the cables and gave them to Wikileaks. And then known informant Adrian Lamo dutifully reported who leaked those cables.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:46
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Not a Step posted:Im really more grousing at the 'the amount of time she served was perfectly correct and in no way reflected political expediency on Obama's part' crowd. If your stance is 'probably merited the death penalty' then I'll happily defend her commutation to May. Maybe he thought she deserved 2 more years but if he left it up to Trump she'd be stuck there for at least 4 so he erred on the side of clemency. More seriously the political cover the pardon power grants outgoing Presidents is a good thing, we shouldn't start bitching about it being opportunistic or they'll just start bragging about how they never pardon anyone like Romney did.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:56
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DynamicSloth posted:Maybe he thought she deserved 2 more years but if he left it up to Trump she'd be stuck there for at least 4 so he erred on the side of clemency. More seriously the political cover the pardon power grants outgoing Presidents is a good thing, we shouldn't start bitching about it being opportunistic or they'll just start bragging about how they never pardon anyone like Romney did. Look, if youre going to make perfectly reasonable and persuasive arguments about not living in a perfect world that I honestly hadn't previously thought of, I'm going to just have to thank you for a new insight and say good day to you. Am I even in D&D anymore?
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Jan 18, 2017 06:03
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Guy Goodbody posted:Looks like Assange might actually do it, the madman We should take him then immediately hand him over to Sweden.
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Jan 18, 2017 07:05
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Republicans posted:We should take him then immediately hand him over to Sweden. We can't take him because he he hasn't been charged with anything in the US. And probably can't be charged with anything in the US, because he didn't commit any crimes in the US
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Jan 18, 2017 07:25
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Wake me when that center right Democrat pays reparations for jailing John Kiriakou and gives him the Medal of Freedom
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Jan 18, 2017 07:42
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Guy Goodbody posted:We can't take him because he he hasn't been charged with anything in the US. And probably can't be charged with anything in the US, because he didn't commit any crimes in the US I know I just think it would be funny after he spent all this time avoiding extradition to Sweden using the excuse that it was a phony charge to get him in custody to be handed over to the US. I mean if we really wanted him we could have probably gotten him easily enough.
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Jan 18, 2017 07:57
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I was wondering what prompted this latest change in Assange, then noticed that there is an election in Ecuador coming and the opposition has repeatedly stated that they were going to kick him out.
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Jan 18, 2017 09:22
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The Iron Rose posted:Man I was really enjoying the last few days of Obama's Presidency too. just dropping in again to say I'm enjoying the gently caress out of seeing lovely people like you upset about this  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2017 10:06
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In a fair world she deserved a loving medal, and if a revolution comes around and manages to rename every place named after lost causer morons and other disgusting butchers, may her name be on the list of new names. Revealing the ugliness of the world is not causing it, no matter how hard you want to spin it. That's my finger to the natsec idiots in the thread rn.
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Jan 18, 2017 10:12
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Not a Step posted:Im really more grousing at the 'the amount of time she served was perfectly correct and in no way reflected political expediency on Obama's part' crowd. If your stance is 'probably merited the death penalty' then I'll happily defend her commutation to May. Presidents mostly commute people right before they leave office. I'm not sure they try to sit down and figure out exactly how many years the person ~really~ deserved. When it comes time to leave office, people get their commutations. It's a special presidential privilige, if the person is guilty, like chelsea manning is, then its an act of mercy. Spitballing, but since this is a very controversial pardon, it would have had consequences for the democratic party. Whether some poo poo rat like chelsea manning gets let out of prison or not is issue number 64,328,521 in the list of political priorities in the US and it would have been very irresponsible to pay any political cost, no matter how small, over it.
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Jan 18, 2017 10:45
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Agnosticnixie posted:In a fair world she deserved a loving medal, and if a revolution comes around and manages to rename every place named after lost causer morons and other disgusting butchers, may her name be on the list of new names. In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty.
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Jan 18, 2017 10:47
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hakimashou posted:In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty. which enemy, exactly
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Jan 18, 2017 10:52
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hakimashou posted:In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty. In a fair world the USA would not be overlooking and doing the kinds of things that prompted Manning to leak in the first place.
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Jan 18, 2017 11:13
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hakimashou posted:In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty. gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8
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Jan 18, 2017 12:04
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evilweasel posted:That's disagreeing with the law, not if his trial is fair or not. Cease to Hope posted:which enemy, exactly
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Jan 18, 2017 12:35
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Republicans posted:We should take him then immediately hand him over to Sweden. Yeah, I've been wondering, if Assange actually follows through with that, is there some way/chance for the US to basically just turn him around on the airport and extradite his rear end to Sweden?
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Jan 18, 2017 12:45
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, I've been wondering, if Assange actually follows through with that, is there some way/chance for the US to basically just turn him around on the airport and extradite his rear end to Sweden? The minute he leaves the embassy the Metropolitan Police will pick him up. There's a European Arrest Warrant out on him. It'd be Britain extraditing him to Sweden. His claimed terror was always of Sweden sending him on to the US, which was a nonsense excuse. Sweden's extradition treaty with the US prohibits extradition for"a political offense" or "an offense connected with a political offense." forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 12:49
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forkboy84 posted:The minute he leaves the embassy the Metropolitan Police will pick him up. There's a European Arrest Warrant out on him. It'd be Britain extraditing him to Sweden. His claimed terror was always of Sweden sending him on to the US, which was a nonsense excuse. Sweden's extradition treaty with the US prohibits extradition for"a political offense" or "an offense connected with a political offense." Maybe he's planning to wait until we leave the EU and try to escape in the five minutes before there's a new extradition treaty.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:02
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"God, progressive voters are so fickle, why won't they come out" "Hey, let's destroy the life of this whistleblower, make them serve twice the time for the crime we pin on them, and let the actual butchers of Iraq go free and become respected elder statesmen, that will show them" The Manning case was like example 10001 of why dems can barely get left wing voters to stop being apathetic. She served more time than the underlings who got thrown to the dogs for Abu Ghraib. She was sentenced for three times as much time as the worst sentence handed over Abu Ghraib. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 13:05
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Peel posted:Maybe he's planning to wait until we leave the EU and try to escape in the five minutes before there's a new extradition treaty. He's managed to avoid one set of charges because the statute of limitations has expired; may as well wait for the other one. Not sure if there's a limit on charges of skipping bail.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:05
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Agnosticnixie posted:"God, progressive voters are so fickle, why won't they come out" Giving vast troves of sensitive state and defense secrets to our enemies isn't whistleblowing.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:11
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hakimashou posted:Giving vast troves of sensitive state and defense secrets to our enemies isn't whistleblowing. Ubless she handed them directly to foreign government agents or sold them for cold hard cash, it is. Daniel Ellsberg also broke sensitive state and defense information to the world, in a time of war and with a very vital USSr on the board to capitalize on it, and he's still a whistleblower. He's also on Chelsea's side on this, by the way. But what does he know, right?
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Jan 18, 2017 13:28
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Also the US military has admitted that her leaks harmed nobody. And the stuff Petraeus leaked to his fuckbuddy was more sensitive and he got off with zero prison time.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:32
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Sephyr posted:Ubless she handed them directly to foreign government agents or sold them for cold hard cash, it is. Daniel Ellsberg also broke sensitive state and defense information to the world, in a time of war and with a very vital USSr on the board to capitalize on it, and he's still a whistleblower. Releasing random diplomatic cables is not whistleblowing - it is not illegal for diplomats to have opinions so there's nothing to whistleblow about.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:45
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hakimashou posted:Giving vast troves of sensitive state and defense secrets to our enemies isn't whistleblowing. which enemy was aided and how
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Jan 18, 2017 13:47
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botany posted:Also the US military has admitted that her leaks harmed nobody. And the stuff Petraeus leaked to his fuckbuddy was more sensitive and he got off with zero prison time. This times 100 This has never been about justice, just making examples of the powerless while letting the connected go free and stay rich and powerful. Shame it took this long, but I'll take it.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:15
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botany posted:Also the US military has admitted that her leaks harmed nobody. And the stuff Petraeus leaked to his fuckbuddy was more sensitive and he got off with zero prison time. Nobody was killed in direct reprisal attacks because of the leaks, but the diplomatic cables arguably helped to inspire the Arab Spring revolutions. I wish Petraeus had gone to prison too.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:27
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You are a judge in a rural town in the 1900s. You are presiding over a case where a black man has been scapegoated for a severe crime that you are certain he did not commit. The racist white town however has scapegoated this man because of their aforementioned racism, and demand you sentence him to death immediately. If you do not execute him, the angry mob will tear down the courthouse and inflict untold violence on innocents in their rage. You do not have the power to stop this. (This is an allegory for Manning/Snowden releasing documents in accordance with their moral principles and the resulting fallout.) If you do execute him, things will be stable, but you allowed a grave miscarriage of justice in the name of stability. (This is an allegory for them NOT releasing secret documents and allowing what they consider to be a severe injustice to continue). Which do you choose? I suspect the people who support manning would all take the first option. You either believe they acted morally correct and so don't really deserve their punishments/severe punishment or they acted morally unscrupulously and deserved a severe punishment/death(?!). a neurotic ai fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 14:58
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hakimashou posted:In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:59
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Yeah, this was pretty much a certain thing, glad it happened though. And if it leads to jailing Assange, all the better.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:01
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Like most things about the Obama Presidency, this comes late and is not enough but despite being severely flawed, it is a very good thing. Fake edit: Natsec people are loving evil. This thread really highlights that fact.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:12
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Do you think Obama would've commuted her sentence if Hillary won? I'm not certain, but I'm also a massive cynic.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:12
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hakimashou posted:In a fair world, there could be no question of a commutation because she would have been convicted of aiding the enemy and given the death penalty. lol what a creepy, hosed up person you are.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:14
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, I've been wondering, if Assange actually follows through with that, is there some way/chance for the US to basically just turn him around on the airport and extradite his rear end to Sweden? That's always been a smokescreen to avoid facing his rape charges because anyone with half a brain knows the UK was far more likely to agree to extradite him to the US than Sweden. There was never any reason to believe facing his charges in Sweden increased his risk of extradition, he was always just playing credulous idiots to avoid justice.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:15
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Chomskyan posted:Actually, a court's ability to consider extenuating circumstances is very much related to whether a trial is fair or not. Extenuating circumstances go to punishment, not guilt. In any event I went and read the Espionage Act and it doesn't "explicitly" bar anything relating to public interest, it doesn't mention it at all. I don't see any reason why he would not be free to raise public interest at the sentencing phase.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:29
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I can't even remember her name before she transitioned. I keep thinking "Preston Manning" but that's a wrinkly old Canadian. 
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Jan 18, 2017 15:52
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evilweasel posted:That's always been a smokescreen to avoid facing his rape charges because anyone with half a brain knows the UK was far more likely to agree to extradite him to the US than Sweden. There was never any reason to believe facing his charges in Sweden increased his risk of extradition, he was always just playing credulous idiots to avoid justice. Yeah, Assange was walking around the UK without complaint while he was fighting extradition to Sweden. As soon as he lost he went straight to the embassy under the fear the UK was going to send him to the US instead. Plus there's the whole not being charged with anything in the US and not being a US citizen thing.
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Jan 18, 2017 16:05
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