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Agnosticnixie posted:The delusion is on the american citizen expecting this freedom really. Manning, whether you love her or hate her depends how you feel about American Exceptionalism. People who buy into that think betraying American interests and allied stability is some sort pact with Satan and nothing less, whereas those who don't feel that if America presumes to lay down the rules of statecraft, it should be expected to live by them also. Somebody fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 11:37
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evilweasel posted:that is an exceptionally stupid post Don't be dense, America has always portrayed itself as the exemplar of the rule of law. Manning's leaks exposed the undercurrent of human rights abuses and flagrant corruption it takes other countries to task over. Being just and honest is good, but it carries a featherweight load when your prime example is a hypocrite. It's poo poo like the Wikileaks material that Manning leaked, whether it was malicious towards the US or not, that invites whataboutism. Example: how can America say its poo poo doesn't stink when it's still flirting with Monroe doctrine in Honduras?
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Jan 19, 2017 14:42
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evilweasel posted:as to hypocricy if you would rather that the united states not push to end human rights abuses and corruption elsewhere, you're going to get your wish tommorow so w/e Forgive my broad expression, I said 'rules of statecraft' to encompass what someone else said about the US having some right to conduct espionage, which is ridiculous. And the US and other countries should absolutely pursue abuses around the world provided they are not, synchronously, committing them or protecting those to commit them, themselves. The final moves Obama is making with Israel is great, but why isn't this being applied in the Phillipines, in Hungary, Egypt, etc. People have said this about conservatism in this forum, but it holds true to any ideal: if you hold yourself to an ideal (like justice, or universal rights) that ideal cannot fail, it can only be failed. Anything you do to undermine that is like stepping into a pit you dug yourself. And yes, it will be sad to enter an era where America doesn't even try, but those failures it made for itself made the plinth on which the US upholds those ideals fragile in the first place. I don't know anyone can say that is was bad those cables came out and not condemn the contents as well? Aren't you better off knowing that not knowing? Aren't we all?
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Jan 19, 2017 15:04
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evilweasel posted:like espionage is older than even the concept of nations and the idea that people would be ~outraged~ and demand protection for someone who reveals ongoing espionage operations as a "whistleblower" is laughable. bulk surveillance against china is absolutely the right thing to do, it's a territorially expansionist country and while we have been on relatively friendly terms with them, the more we know the better. given that it's a foreign country the concern about domestic bulk surveillance doesn't apply. also, russia! the nsa is, almost certainly, responsible for us knowing exactly who was doing what in interfering with our election. Oh I know, I'm not saying espionage is an abomination or even unwise, but don't even think about giving it pretensions of righteousness. And the US has a bad habit of giving their intelligence companies such a long leash they graduate from information gathering to coup d'etats. What Russia did with the US election was scummy, and if I remember Obama made threats in kind about the Russian electric grid. So don't get so loving worked up the infiltration works both ways. By the way, I'm not a US citizen, so I admit I get the benefits of the Five Eyes system but when my countrymen die for nothing following the US on its grubby little crusades it looks more than a bit hollow.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:25
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