"The Truth is in the Middle" - The Liberal Ideal in an Era of Nationalism

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "The Truth is in the Middle" - The Liberal Ideal in an Era of Nationalism

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Typo posted:

left-wing protesters are thought of as bad because they are seeing as attacking the nation and patriotism and the police/military, all of which are considered core good things in America. They aren't just attacking specific issues or problems in America: they are seeing as attacking America itself.

when you have protesters holding up signs like "patriotism is racism" it inevitably alienates people who live in key electoral areas.

Patriotism, nationalism and petty tribalism are very strong forces and I think the left and liberals have a tendency of optimistically believing we moved past it.

Also there's no particular reason why fiscal liberal economic policies are attached to socially liberal political parties, for all we on D&D mocked the dogmatic and unshakable faith the Republicans have in the free market, Trump just won the presidency with the two key ideas of repudating free trade and use heavy state intervention on preventing firms from moving capital freely. It's not exactly free market, but it could be sold from the right and not the left.

What I'm basically getting at is that Trump is prob only person in America who can sell UHC to the American people. National Socialism is a lot more appealing than left-wing socialism.

If it has to be national socialism then let it be a national socialism divorced from the idea of skin color. Let us promote the nation based on being American . Let us make Americanism an idea and attack filth like the Devoss's as traitors to our nation. Let us make being the worker the national idea and portray our enemies as the enemies of our country.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 05:42

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 03:11

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

This won't work and you're a moron. Tribalism needs an enemy, and that enemy is always present both inside and outside. Tribalism can't stay, it can and has to go.

I did give an enemy. Big Money makers like the Devoss's. I mean I am also open to making nazis, Wahabis and members of the CATO institute on that list too. For external enemies I think we need someone who will never go way. Like China.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 08:43

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

Openness, honesty and consistency are not luxuries, to be discarded because you think you can win more votes, they're essential qualities of the better future. The problem with employing 'deceptions' or 'convenient lies' like tribalism, is that you actually end up with people who believe that poo poo, who buy their own propaganda, and it always ends up getting out of control. Once something is released into the wild, you can't predict what it's going to do, and you can't correct it if it all goes a way you don't want it to.

Look at the experience of the 'reagan' conservatives, who peddled for so long to their base the same bullshit over and over again, despite not really believing it themselves - now, their lies have taken on a life of their own, and they're unable to rein it in.

Well it is honest that most of our problems are from people like the Devosses. Also I can make them a perpetual enemy based on how many people have received their money. So their can be a constant hunt for them as "agents". Plus most of that family, and the Kochs would flee. So they can both act as our eternal and external enemies.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 09:13

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

The current distrust of cities is purely economic - firstly, it's not all cities, secondly, it's because they have benefited from the two speed economy while everyone else has been poo poo on. NY is fine, LA is fine, but everyone else is sort of hosed? It's not like everyone has the capital for their own start-up, but they're the only guys actually making it.

But historically, protestantism has had a thing against cities because they're seen as dens of vice/decadence, while the countryside live simpler lives and are therefore more virtuous (see "salt of the earth"). Which probably has something to do with cities historically having negative growth rates, because of diseases and such, that only ever 'recently' (read: in the last hundred years of so) changed because of things like sanitation systems. Now, your economies of scale generally mean you're better off living in cities.

Okay now this is just wrong. Protestants were city dwellers. Historically it was during the reformation that they were made up of urban middle class types who had the benefit of reading bibles who then launched attacks on rural folks with their ceremonies to the saints that these Protestants deemed to be pagan.

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...0cities&f=false

rudatron posted:

You're treating those actions as if they've occurred in a political vacuum, the people you're talking about live in a bubble. That image of the 'elite' was specifically designed and propagated by people who knew what they were doing, it is not the 'inevitable' outcome you make it seem like.

You're insane and wrong. Do you think there is something mystical about the Devosses/Koch/whatever other dickhead you care to mention? They're not agents of the ether, here for you to (lol) 'hunt', they're idiots stuck in the same system you are. All they've done is rationalize their position, and internalized the ethics of the exploitative system they are the beneficiaries of. They are otherwise unremarkable people. They weren't the first and won't be the last to do such a thing, and by positioning them as 'agents' of misfortune, you're ignoring the more the more fundamental problems, that all human beings suffer from - confirmation bias & a the limited subjective experience, in combination with a system that incentives exploitation and encultures the illusion of mastery of one's life and condition as the only cure-all for social ills, as if such a thing were even possible in a society of billions.

Actually I do recognize that. Its called giving people an enemy so that you can maintain power. The people will always need an other, its inescapable. So if you're going to need an other then why not give them some people who undoubtedly deserve like the people whose own insecurities lead them to funding the destruction of a somewhat prosperous system? I mean to call me insane while promoting nihilism where nothing will get better is kind of funny. Also to proclaim yourself the guardian of the truth while being clearly wrong about the history of the reformation is really funny.

Ardennes posted:

So the question is, are liberals going to acknowledge class or not?

NO. I really doubt many will. I several who will say this election was always going to happen, that America was just too sexist and too racist. They act as though Obama was just an accident. Free Trade had nothing to do with it. People who were poorer not showing up had nothing to do with it. Americans are just too stupid for them. To admit that class conflict created this scenario is just far too painful for them to admit. They would rather write off much of this country as just racist bumpkins then dare admit that there has been a war on the lower classes and in the general election only one candidate (whilst lying) offered a different way forward. I would also add that the total number of liberals is not that large, the people who I would say are actually liberal rather then those who put on liberal affectations when it comes to an issue or two. Is not much more then the total number of people who are libertarian. Of course most conservatives I know are not real members of the American conservative movement. THey will admit that they want universal healthcare, they willa dmit that they would support welfare if it meant you had to pick up trash with a "on welfare" shirt on, the people of this country mostly vote based on their perceptions becuase ther'e not loving nerds live everyone including myself who posts i this thread. So the failure of liberalism is that people have no real reason to be engaged in this political process.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jan 21, 2017

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 17:48

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Typo posted:

Even class resentment works a lot better for the right than for the left, if you look at rural white working class voting trump as a big gently caress-you to coastal liberal elites, it's pretty much case in point of class resentment.

One of the things about American anti-elitism is that Americans hate the cultural elite more than the economic elite, the cultural elite being rooted in caricatures of liberal college professors or Hollywood which today manifests itself as the "PC-Police". The cultural elite are not necessarily wealthy but Americans hate those guys a lot more than some super rich dude going yeah yeah ban abortion while loving social welfare programs over.

Well I have to disagree with you on this because Obama won 2012 mostly because he was able to portray Romney as a member of the economic elite trying to gently caress them over. Rick Nolan my congressman was able to hold on against a rich gently caress by the name of Stewart Mills by playing up the fact the guy had been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. However I would also add that because the dems are nearly at the moment in service of the economic elites as the GOP that the attacking of the economic elite means that it is generally not tried. Except when dems are desperate. Trump didn't just win because he was able to portray HRC as a cultural elitist he won because he was also able to portray her as a member of the economic elite. As funny as that is, it worked. Of course I would also say that the dems should probably not try to get endorsements from liberals who say half this country are idiots.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jan 22, 2017

# ¿ Jan 21, 2017 18:51

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 03:11

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

KomradeX posted:

I think Kurt Eichewald is the perfect example of the type of Liberals we're talking about. And he deserves bad things to happen to him

https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-67-the-swordfish-episode-121816 go to 20 minutes and they go off on him.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2017 06:36

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "The Truth is in the Middle" - The Liberal Ideal in an Era of Nationalism