|
Is Communism good? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Yes |
|
375 | 66.25% |
| No |
|
191 | 33.75% |
| Total: | 523 votes | ||
|
Communism is so great that the east Germans had to build a wall to keep the capitalists out.
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 10:01 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Why would blogging even be a "job" under the dictatorship of the proletariat? Blogging also can just be this thing that you can do if you feel like it during the immense amount of free time you get after doing whatever short amount of highly-automated work is required of you to fulfill the basic needs of the collective. so how many extra perks does the toilet cleaner get? who decides that? what if he does a crummy job, do his perks get reduced by some amount? what if I don't make a mess in the toilet, should I have to do extra non-toilet cleaning work to support you disgusting monsters that can't figure out how to poo poo without it getting everywhere? jhfc, goons. it amazes me that you think some system that substitutes "or whatever" for money would ever work
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:18
|
|
|
Despera posted:Communism is so great that the east Germans had to build a wall to keep the capitalists out. I wish we had a wall around your posting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
mister magpie posted:I wish we had a wall around your posting. Can't build a wall around the truth
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:24
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:so how many extra perks does the toilet cleaner get? who decides that? what if he does a crummy job, do his perks get reduced by some amount? what if I don't make a mess in the toilet, should I have to do extra non-toilet cleaning work to support you disgusting monsters that can't figure out how to poo poo without it getting everywhere? jhfc, goons. it amazes me that you think some system that substitutes "or whatever" for money would ever work I'm genuinely sorry that social relations between human beings that are not mediated through the market are so alien to you that you cannot even conceive of them. This is really sad and not actually your fault, for you are a product of capitalism and this is what it does to people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:I'm genuinely sorry that social relations between human beings that are not mediated through the market are so alien to you that you cannot even conceive of them. This is really sad and not actually your fault, for you are a product of capitalism and this is what it does to people. Yes, every time I want a dozen eggs I want to negotiate a fair amount of labor "or whatever" in trade, what a simple system that isn't at all 100% retarded, because, you see, we live in caves 10,000 years ago
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:Yes, every time I want a dozen eggs I want to negotiate a fair amount of labor "or whatever" in trade, what a simple system that isn't at all 100% retarded, because, you see, we live in caves 10,000 years ago That isn't actually how primitive economies worked. Barter economies only appear after currency.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:That isn't actually how primitive economies worked. Barter economies only appear after currency. so... currency predates barter. makes perfect sense. not to be a typical local, but I suppose you can give us some evidence of that?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
I don't think communists actually have a problem with currency because it's quite useful, they have a problem with the distribution of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:Yes, every time I want a dozen eggs I want to negotiate a fair amount of labor "or whatever" in trade, what a simple system that isn't at all 100% retarded, because, you see, we live in caves 10,000 years ago Don't confuse the fact that commies show humility and do not like to pretend to have the solutions all planned out for all the future hypothetical problems of socialist society; or the fact that, unlike crypto-fascist liberals, they actually have trust in the people's ability to democratically manage their own affairs once liberated from the shackles of capitalism; with anything other than just that. "Or whatever" can absolutely include a currency system, and probably will, but might not. Capitalism is not defined by the existence of money but by the existence of private property, and the ability for those who own more than they need to invest it in capitalist ventures and thus claim a portion of the value produced by others. This is the crucial change that communists fight for: the democratic ownership of the means of production and the collective stewardship of nature, in common, for the people's benefit, instead of for the exclusive benefit of a few bourgeois super-oligarchs who are happy to let the masses starve and destroy our planet. Communists are not communists because they have this perfectly planned out system, that they fantasize about one day being in a position where they can magically single-handedly impose it, as planned, onto everybody else. They understand history as a process which is shaped by economic forces and the masses of millions of people. Communists are communists because they recognize the contradictions of capitalism, the horrors that it produces, and the inevitability of its collapse. They are communists because they realize that when liberal bourgeois society fails and capitalism does inevitably collapse, the only remaining choice is between genocide, war, and fascism on one side, or socialism on the other. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jan 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:so... currency predates barter. makes perfect sense. not to be a typical local, but I suppose you can give us some evidence of that? Here's an article on the topic: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/barter-society-myth/471051/
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
Yes History has been kind to communism
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Here's an article on the topic: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/barter-society-myth/471051/ what a perfect encapsulation of The ATlantic, and this whole moronic derail Economically Illiterate Magazine posted:Adam Smith said that quid-pro-quo exchange systems preceded economies based on currency, but there’s no evidence that he was right. or, you know, evidence that he was wrong either
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:so... currency predates barter. makes perfect sense. not to be a typical local, but I suppose you can give us some evidence of that? "Debt the First 5000 Years" by David Graeber would be the canonical text on the topic. Barter intuitively makes sense and was created as a "just so" story by early economists. However, this story is wholly unsupported by anthropology. If you look at primitive societies, you don't find barter anywhere. Instead, the only places where barter has been found to exist are places where a currency system has broken down (prisons, frontier settlements, post-disaster, etc.).
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Gift economies aren't actually barter, hth. Neither are tributary economies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Despera posted:Yes History has been kind to communism Communism, anarchism, primitivism, all great and successful ideologies that a certain subset of goons seem to think will solve their problems like that they can't get a date or fit through the door without turning sideways
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Don't confuse the fact that commies show humility Sure as hell not on this board
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:Communism, anarchism, primitivism, all great and successful ideologies that a certain subset of goons seem to think will solve their problems like that they can't get a date or fit through the door without turning sideways Excuse me sir but we're here to watch a movie.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:what a perfect encapsulation of The ATlantic, and this whole moronic derail Notice how gobbagool so easily dismisses the research of anthropologists, sociologists, and historians because they don't fit the naive notions about pre-capitalist society that the bourgeoise has worked very hard to instill into him through business 101 textbooks and neoliberal think-thanks like the Adam Smith Institute.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:"Debt the First 5000 Years" by David Graeber would be the canonical text on the topic. So for a primitive subsistence culture gets by by stockpiling food and then eating it, each according to their need. seems like an effective alternative to our global economy. Now, where's my new iphone? My poor goddamned kids are both sporting iPhone 6s and that makes me sad
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:Communism, anarchism, primitivism, all great and successful ideologies that a certain subset of goons seem to think will solve their problems like that they can't get a date or fit through the door without turning sideways All are primarily criticisms of Capitalism and hypotheses for alternatives. The alternatives may or may not be correct and do not entirely agree with each other but all are largely unified in their criticisms of the status quo, which are accurate, and demand a solution.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:So for a primitive subsistence culture gets by by stockpiling food and then eating it, each according to their need. seems like an effective alternative to our global economy. Now, where's my new iphone? My poor goddamned kids are both sporting iPhone 6s and that makes me sad That's actually not how they worked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
"There is no other way, capitalism, or living like ancient hunter gatherers" - noted economist gobbagool
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:or, you know, evidence that he was wrong either there's actually a lot of evidence he was wrong, from current observations of uncontacted tribes to archaeological reconstruction of work flow in ancient societies. caroline humphrey, who also gets quoted in the ATL article, is one of the most respected scholars on the subject, by the way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Notice how gobbagool so easily dismisses the research of anthropologists, sociologists, and historians because they don't fit the naive notions about pre-capitalist society that the bourgeoise has worked very hard to instill into him through business 101 textbooks and neoliberal think-thanks like the Adam Smith Institute. Sure, let's take the lessons learned from observing stone age and worse civilizations and pretend somehow that they apply to our modern global civilization. I mean, obviously I'm the stubborn idiot here. Did you finish reading "everything I need to know I learned in kindergarden"? Seems like that would be extremely your poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Hey if it worked when the average lifespan was 20, it can work now
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:All are primarily criticisms of Capitalism and hypotheses for alternatives. they demand a solution like you demand that donald trump listen to you on whatever your pet issue is
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:That's actually not how they worked. that's exactly what your article in the atlantic says about Iroquois Indians, did you not read what you petulantly demanded I read?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
You sound like someone who believes they're using the socratic method.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:that's exactly what your article in the atlantic says about Iroquois Indians, did you not read what you petulantly demanded I read? I didn't demand you read an article.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
botany posted:there's actually a lot of evidence he was wrong, from current observations of uncontacted tribes to archaeological reconstruction of work flow in ancient societies. caroline humphrey, who also gets quoted in the ATL article, is one of the most respected scholars on the subject, by the way. funny, leftists always criticizing Adam Smith, but every single idea coming from the left about how to manage an economy always seems to end up with lots and lots of starving people. Weird, that! edit: sorry, forgot to state the shibboleth: communism does not fail, it can only BE failed
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
"The british empire, famously a communist dictatorship" - said by a famous projectionist
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
You'll find that this question has already been answered back in 1987 by the band Negativland, as heard here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2iKWMePyxU Also, apparently Christianity is stupid, who knew?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:funny, leftists always criticizing Adam Smith, but every single idea coming from the left about how to manage an economy always seems to end up with lots and lots of starving people. Weird, that! Ah, so you also don't understand Adam Smith. Things are starting to make sense now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:funny, leftists always criticizing Adam Smith, but every single idea coming from the left about how to manage an economy always seems to end up with lots and lots of starving people. Weird, that! yeah i'm not seriously going to get into a debate on the merits of communism with you in this incredibly serious thread, just wanted to drop in and give some background on the barter theory of money since i happen to know a little bit about the topic 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:Ah, so you also don't understand Adam Smith. Things are starting to make sense now. Please, by all means, share your understanding of Adam Smith and within context explain how totally awesome communism or anarchism or whatever dumb alternative you support is in contrast to capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
"Anarchism is a failed system, why it can't even withstand a concerted assault by three fascist empires single-handedly with the full might of two spanish provinces"
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
Doesn't matter even the stupidest Americans know communism doesn't work. I just like trolling them because it's soo easy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_voting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc_emigration_and_defection
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
gobbagool posted:So for a primitive subsistence culture gets by by stockpiling food and then eating it, each according to their need. seems like an effective alternative to our global economy. Now, where's my new iphone? My poor goddamned kids are both sporting iPhone 6s and that makes me sad Information technology is bad for people and if communism means returning to some less sophisticated technological state where we drive bikes and simple cars and don't mine coltan (and of course, it does not) I only want it to happen more.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 10:01 |
|
|
gobbagool posted:they demand a solution like you demand that donald trump listen to you on whatever your pet issue is That... What? What does that even mean?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2017 22:11
|
|