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Is Communism good? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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375 | 66.25% |
| No |
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191 | 33.75% |
| Total: | 523 votes | ||
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linoleum floors posted:Only 26% of eligible voters voted for Trump. I'd say that's something that's up for debate. the gensec was elected with 0% of the popular vote in fact that's really important as to why Yelsein beat Gorbachev in their power struggle after the august coup and the ussr got dissolved because of it, yelsin actually won a popular election and gorby never did
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Mar 31, 2017 22:39
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Moridin920 posted:Listen, you don't have to vote for the Bolshevik party... Heh. Remember when universal suffrage didn't exist and Republicans or democrats controlled police forces to threaten people to vote for them
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Mar 31, 2017 22:41
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Typo posted:the gensec was elected with 0% of the popular vote Not true. They were elected by delegates who were elected by other delegates who were elected by the workers. Not much different than any electoral college system.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:43
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Typo posted:for one you can elect someone like trump or bernie sanders, whereas under cccp those guys would never have even made it onto a ballot Because they'd have been murdered by the communists along with millions of other people.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:44
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linoleum floors posted:Only 26% of eligible voters voted for Trump. I'd say that's something that's up for debate. about maybe twenty eligible voters voted for khrushchev, as an example, so i actually insist that my comparison is not up to debate at all within the american system of course it is up for debate though!
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Mar 31, 2017 22:44
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linoleum floors posted:Not true. They were elected by delegates who were elected by other delegates who were elected by the workers. Not much different than any electoral college system. the previous general secretary controls candidate selection process for the delegates (only one name on ballot to vote for lol), real decision-making for who the next genSec is gets made at the politburo level with no input from the voter
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Mar 31, 2017 22:46
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Typo posted:the previous general secretary controls candidate selection process for the delegates (only one name on ballot to vote for lol), real decision-making for who the next genSec is gets made at the politburo level with no input from the voter Hmm. Sounds a lot like how the Democrats and Republicans choose their leadership.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:48
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IDK brah.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:49
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The one and only public referendum in the USSR was in 1991 and nearly 78% of the population voted to preserve the USSR, which then got dismantled anyway. Democracy 
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Mar 31, 2017 22:49
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linoleum floors posted:Not true. They were elected by delegates who were elected by other delegates who were elected by the workers. Not much different than any electoral college system. "elected" again, there was ever only one candidate for each seat up for election. so you got candidates picked by the party with 100 percent success rate, who then affirmed party's leadership. under the current system we have had something like 15 parties actually participating on government in 20 years.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:49
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steinrokkan posted:"elected" Oh right. The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party The capitalist party
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Mar 31, 2017 22:52
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I'll put it like this. In Bulgaria, you could vote for the Communist Party or the opposition party. No one took it seriously because everyone knew the Communists would win overwhelmingly regardless. linoleum floors posted:Oh right. This is kind of a fair point for the USA in terms of "how fair are our elections really" but fwiw the socialist/communist party enjoys fairly significant success in Europe and other countries where they have a parliamentary system. But either way it's a false equivalency.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:52
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linoleum floors posted:Hmm. Sounds a lot like how the Democrats and Republicans choose their leadership. except for votes actually matter in those primaries because convention rules binds delegates to the candidate the voters chose them for on the first ballot (this is how Trump go the nom despite almost unanimous opposition from the party establishment) and there's no bans on political parties, there's a general election in which the EC is a formality, the problem comes if the GOP bans the Dems or vice-versa
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Mar 31, 2017 22:53
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linoleum floors posted:Hmm. Sounds a lot like how the Democrats and Republicans choose their leadership. internal party elections do not, in this case, decide who is going to rule the country. also are you suggesting that trump was the chosen GOP candidate all along, rather than Jeb, or Rubio, or Walker? Are you also suggesting the Party would have let a candidate like Sanders run and almost win despite the will of the party structure? And that the Party candidate and undisputed leader would lose all executive power to an opposition party, as has happened this yeat?
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Mar 31, 2017 22:53
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linoleum floors posted:Oh right. This is the most idiotic thing ever put on paper.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:54
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linoleum floors posted:Oh right. i suspected you started having a stroke about four posts ago when you started making all the idiotic false equivalencies, post your address so i can direct an ambulance your way, if you can
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Mar 31, 2017 22:54
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Moridin920 posted:This is kind of a fair point for the USA in terms of "how fair are our elections really" but fwiw the socialist/communist party enjoys fairly significant success in Europe and other countries where they have a parliamentary system. I mean most of Europe's "socialist/communist" parties are now also capitalist parties, alas.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:54
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There's no difference between socialism and capitalism either. They are both just economic ideologies!
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Mar 31, 2017 22:54
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OwlFancier posted:I mean most of Europe's "socialist/communist" parties are now also capitalist parties, alas. Yeah maybe all I'm saying is our two party system doesn't seem very good. Not that we're just like the USSR though that's silly. e: I mean the USSR said "yeah you can run" then people ran for office then "lol haha nm" and they arrested the people who ran in opposition. That's fuckin some poo poo right there.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:55
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linoleum floors posted:Oh right. This is a good thing though, you don't want people seriously considering going back to Nazis or Communists.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:56
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OwlFancier posted:I mean most of Europe's "socialist/communist" parties are now also capitalist parties, alas. Again, we now have democratic Communist party that subscribes to Soviet era legacy. With free elections in place, we can gauge its real success - which has so far lingered around 12 percent, though its expected to get a massive jump this year. It's not the other guys' fault few people vote for the Communists. Personally I wouldn't vote for them either because pre 1989 Communism sucked rear end.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:57
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steinrokkan posted:Again, we now have democratic Communist party that subscribes to Soviet era legacy. With free elections in place, we can gauge its real success - which has so far lingered around 12 percent, though its expected to get a massive jump this year. It's not the other guys' fault few people vote for the Communists. I might argue that in a Capitalist society, there might be some kind of... push from the people with power to keep Communists out of power?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:00
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OwlFancier posted:I might argue that in a Capitalist society, there might be some kind of... push from the people with power to keep Communists out of power? there was a pretty big push from people with power to keep the orange baboon out of it but that didn't work out huh
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Mar 31, 2017 23:01
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:there was a pretty big push from people with power to keep the orange baboon out of it but that didn't work out huh Trump matters very little to the people with power because people with power don't need anything except for the US to continue to exist and continue protecting them, which Trump will do.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:04
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OwlFancier posted:I might argue that in a Capitalist society, there might be some kind of... push from the people with power to keep Communists out of power? So the problem of Communism is that other people are allowed to speak against it? Are you serious? They receive the same subsidies and the same broadcasting time / mandated campaigning allotment as any other party. BTW, what about all the effectively anti-business parties / politicians popping up, like the Brexit jerk offs in Britain, the FN, Orban... who are certainly not the preferred candidates of the corporate interests. Maybe the problem is that the left in its current form is loving awful at getting any sort of message out / reorganizing to be unburdened by compromised status quo candidates.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:04
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steinrokkan posted:So the problem of Communism is that other people are allowed to speak against it? Are you serious? The problem with Capitalism is that it is obstructive to democracy because you can simply buy power. Your Communist party may be relegated to a particular amount of political exposure but the entire edifice of society ingrains the idea in us from birth that Capitalism is the only way to live.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:05
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Most people in my country were born and educated under Communism, everybody currently in any senior position went into Communist schools, and often had to study Marxism Leninism as a University subject, but nice try.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:06
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OwlFancier posted:Trump matters very little to the people with power because people with power don't need anything except for the US to continue to exist and continue protecting them, which Trump will do. this assumes omniscience on the part of the people with power as to what trump the known insane wildcard will do but since your theory for why communism doesn't take hold consists of "the evil capitalist politicians are holding my commie mates back in a secret all powerful cabal" i suppose you might well believe that
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Mar 31, 2017 23:07
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Good for you, mine didn't.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:07
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steinrokkan posted:Again, we now have democratic Communist party that subscribes to Soviet era legacy. With free elections in place, we can gauge its real success - which has so far lingered around 12 percent, though its expected to get a massive jump this year. It's not the other guys' fault few people vote for the Communists. Personally I wouldn't vote for them either because pre 1989 Communism sucked rear end. The real problem is their desire to stay relevant to dogma rather than how you win elections, ie by solving peoples problems. Most parties on the left have nothing to offer people than rhetoric. The successful ones have been the populist lefts. Five star movement ,Podemos etc. More populism is needed for the left to grab more seats, if the recent trends in elections is anything to go by.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:08
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The socialist project is dead if the pre-condition for any socialist victory is the death of capitalism by some other force so that socialists may just fill the vacuum unopposed.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:08
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Everyone in the social sciences studies marxism in university because it's a widely applicable critical theory. That gives you zero additional credibility.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:08
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steinrokkan posted:The socialist project is dead if the pre-condition for any socialist victory is the death of capitalism by some other force so that socialists may just fill the vacuum unopposed. Trying to make this make any sense at all... nope.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:09
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OwlFancier posted:I might argue that in a Capitalist society, there might be some kind of... push from the people with power to keep Communists out of power? In any civilized society or society with an interest in protecting the lives of its people there is a push to keep genocidal communists out of power.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:10
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OwlFancier posted:Good for you, mine didn't. So what we see is that it doesn't matter if people have been indoctrinated one way or another, doctrinal Marxism in the form that existed in the USSR doesn't work, there isn't demand. There must be a more palatable form of socialism that can actually get public enthusiasm.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:10
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RBC posted:Everyone in the social sciences studies marxism in university because it's a widely applicable critical theory. That gives you zero additional credibility. Such a waste of human potential 
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Mar 31, 2017 23:10
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RBC posted:Trying to make this make any sense at all... nope. Mr. OwlFancier says that it is impossible for socialists to win if there are extant capitalists who do not jell with a socialist victory. So presumably the only way forward is either a violent revolution (like that has ever helped anybody) or the spontaneous combustion of everybody not on board with full Communism now. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 23:11
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RBC posted:Trying to make this make any sense at all... nope. around half of this thread has been the best posters on the forums trying to make sense of your awful posting and no luck mate
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Mar 31, 2017 23:11
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Being educated is a waste of human potential?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:12
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OwlFancier posted:Trump matters very little to the people with power because people with power don't need anything except for the US to continue to exist and continue protecting them, which Trump will do. Trump is damaging to their idea of globalism which is central to continued growth and continued income. The blocking of TRIPS and threatening NAFTA are quite big incentives to be annoyed at Trump. The saddest story of the American election is to look at the relative success of Bernie and Trump, but not see how that's indicative of people being incredibly sick and tired of mainstream politics lack of movement. Extreme lack of capitalizing on that and instead spending all efforts on protesting president cheeto puff.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:12
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