|
ElectricSheep posted:From Kevin's perspective, he only saw ... This is true (and a really great catch), but I was referring more to the film as a whole in its treatment of the other character. It's a subtle distinction, and one more usually associated with racist fictional characters vs actual racist themes. (Except here it's stigmatizing abuse victims.)
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 16:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 09:15 |
|
|
Megasabin posted:DID is actually a good choice, because it's already a fictional disorder. Source? I was curious on how research on it had come along and been reading on it some, but it seems as "real" as any other diagnosed mental issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Feb 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2017 06:14
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:Source? I was curious on how research on it had come along and been reading on it some, but it seems as "real" as any other diagnosed mental issue. It's still in the DSM, but that doesn't mean much given how inaccurate the DSM is as a clinical tool (Homosexuality was in previous versions as well). You will have trouble finding any academic psychiatrist employed at a University Medical Center who believe that it exists. There has been a push to get it removed from the DSM with each new revision, but there will always be a vocal minority, and it takes a long time for medical science to admit "we can conclusively say this doesn't exist." There is no one paper I can point you to that states it's not a real thing. It's pretty much a consensus that evidence drive academic psychiatrists have come to. The best evidence I can provide you is that literally no one has ever been able to provide a convincing case to show the symptoms are genuine. There are people who claim they are treating DID patients all the time, but when they actual present the case and have other psychiatrists/psychologists interview the patient, it turns out to be Severe Borderline Personality Disorder or Autism Spectrum Disorder with dissociate symptoms, and all the parts of the story regarding distinct multiple personalities ends up being a negative coping tehcnique that is more volitional than unconscious (ie. the person is acting to an extent). In fact in my experience and the experience of every older colleague I've discussed this with, telling a patient they have DID and treating for "DID" often does way more damage than it does benefit, as it it basically reinforces a negative coping technique (pretending to be different people to excuse actions). I've had a handful of patients in the last 5 years who came in with a previous diagnosis of DID, had been treated for YEARS at a "DID Clinic", and they all got better after we moved away from that diagnosis, focused on their personality disorder (usually borderline), and got them into standard old DBT or CBT psychotherapy. In addition there is the history of the epidemiology of the illness, which follows no normal pattern of mental illness. It was considered an incredibly rare disorder for most of it's existence, and then suddenly had a huge spike in the amount of cases in the 70-80's, almost entirely from America, almost entirely from psychiatrists and psychologists who practiced hypnotic suggestion. It was then unsurprisingly revealed that these many (likely all) all of these psychiatrists were suggesting to their patients they had multiple personalities while they were under hypnosis or even when they weren't. They were essentially creating the diagnosis, because it was a hot topic in psychiatry at the time, and they want fame/publish papers. Contrast this to the epidemiology of the majority of other mental illnesses, which have a steady and equal distribution throughout the world. The papers about people changing their body chemistry and such, are all one off unreproducible papers, which is a good indicator that it's bad science or just plain made up. Keep in mind that dissociation is a real symptom, especially in children who undergo trauma. Dissociation manifesting as distinct genuine personalities that take control of people's body at different times is not dissociation though. Megasabin fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Feb 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2017 11:43
|
|
|
Loved the movie. The final twist actually ties up a lot of loose ends.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2017 07:47
|
|
|
Megasabin posted:They were essentially creating the diagnosis, because it was a hot topic in psychiatry at the time, and they want fame/publish papers. Fortunately for you, this entire film is explicitly about a bad therapist who enables the patient in his quest to manifest symptoms of DID. Because he wants DID. This is fairly clear just from the one 'identity' that makes a big performance of injecting insulin for the camera. The 'beast' emerged when this sort of performance wasn't enough to earn him sufficient validation. He wants to be superhuman, and so concocts a whole 'ritual' where he psychs himself up, sends out fake 'cry for help' emails to get the therapist's attention, tells the girl where the shotgun is, etc. There's a reason why the film focusses on only four of the 24 identities. The true identity, the kid, acts out this ersatz nuclear family in his head, and the other twenty performances are superfluous - showboating, designed to impress. This is why "Dennis"' performance as "'Barry'" starts slipping badly after being fairly convincing in that first scene. Dennis wanted to get found out. Barry was likely always a performance by Dennis, who is ultimately a performance by the kid (who, as he says, controls which identity is performed at a given time). That's not to say that the dude is lying, per se. It's just one of the points of the film: the power of belief as a two-edged sword. His absolute conviction that he has DID is what causes it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 09:20
|
|
|
Megasabin posted:It's still in the DSM, but that doesn't mean much given how inaccurate the DSM is as a clinical tool (Homosexuality was in previous versions as well). You will have trouble finding any academic psychiatrist employed at a University Medical Center who believe that it exists. There has been a push to get it removed from the DSM with each new revision, but there will always be a vocal minority, and it takes a long time for medical science to admit "we can conclusively say this doesn't exist." Thanks for the in depth explanation. That's makes a lot of sense with regards to the difference in dissociation and DID.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2017 10:49
|
|
|
I'm not sure the twist was intended to be that The Beast is real. I mean, I spent much of the movie with the impression that the main girl was the tough, stoic one whose family taught her at a young age to hunt and be strong. The other two girls were panicking and doing really dumb stuff to get themselves punished while she was just biding her time and being smart. Turned out though that the flashbacks were actually about her being abused and broken, and that her stoicness was just a passiveness brought about by her past. It just showed actions in a new light that completely changed the way they came off.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Victorkm posted:I'm not sure the twist was intended to be that The Beast is real. I mean, I spent much of the movie with the impression that the main girl was the tough, stoic one whose family taught her at a young age to hunt and be strong. The other two girls were panicking and doing really dumb stuff to get themselves punished while she was just biding her time and being smart. Turned out though that the flashbacks were actually about her being abused and broken, and that her stoicness was just a passiveness brought about by her past. It just showed actions in a new light that completely changed the way they came off. I wouldn't say she was totally broken and passive, I think when they first meet Kevin the other girls are pretty set on bum rushing him the next time he comes in she says something to the tune of "No, we should wait, we don't even know what this is yet." She was pretty clearly gauging the situation before calculating an appropriate move. She could still be an abused, broken protagonist, but that doesn't make her initial inaction a resignation to the circumstances.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2017 16:21
|
|
|
If you want to see McAvoy do some real scenery shredding, he stars in the film of Welsh's Filth streaming on US Netflix right now. Some like it better than the novel, which I can definitely see, though one particular twist works far better in the book than onscreen.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
McAvoy did a phenomenal job and was extremely entertaining, carrying the film.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
The ending transformed a pretty good movie into something incredible. I have no idea how he managed to convince the studio to withhold knowledge that would have increased the movie's bottom line. And guys, of course the science here is eye-rolling. But the movie doesn't take place in our world. Complaining about it is akin to complaining about the science in say a Marvel movie. Yeah it would have been nice to come up with something closer to truth, but it's really a minor point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2017 05:54
|
|
|
God Hole posted:I wouldn't say she was totally broken and passive, I think when they first meet Kevin the other girls are pretty set on bum rushing him the next time he comes in she says something to the tune of "No, we should wait, we don't even know what this is yet." Yeah, that's true, but it does put a bit of a different spin on her motivations for her actions and reasoning than what is first hinted at.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2017 06:21
|
|
|
precision posted:If you want to see McAvoy do some real scenery shredding, he stars in the film of Welsh's Filth streaming on US Netflix right now. Some like it better than the novel, which I can definitely see, though one particular twist works far better in the book than onscreen. ah man i dug Filth a lot, thanks for the reminder to re-watch it 
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2017 17:10
|
|
|
I Am A Robot posted:The ending transformed a pretty good movie into something incredible. I have no idea how he managed to convince the studio to withhold knowledge that would have increased the movie's bottom line. Well, going back to The Sixth Sense, that movie pretty much blew up via a combo of word-of-mouth and the Oscar nominations it pulled for a new director to Hollywood - plus the whole "twist ending" thing was drawing comparisons to Hitchcock. Fast-forward nineteen years and it seems kind of funny, especially because Hitchcock couldn't conceive of The Happening on his worst day. However, consider the approach taken here: no marketing blitz even after its release and this movie's already pulled in $115 million domestically on a $9 million budget. The twist itself is buried right at the end because Shyamalan's got to outdo his own gimmicks at this point. This whole thing feels very much like an attempt to reboot his image as a director. Shyamalan is also going to take this ball and run with it: it looks like we'll get Willis vs. McAvoy after all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2017 05:41
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:The Village. You could maybe argue The Sixth Sense.
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:I always thought it was heavily implied that the guy at the start of the Sixth Sense could also see dead people and wasn't mentally ill, just tired of seeing ghosts. Yeah. I'm also not totally sure "a mentally ill person does a crime" is really a slanderous story to tell but whatever. Split implies that the DID is bullshit too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2017 00:52
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:I always thought it was heavily implied that the guy at the start of the Sixth Sense could also see dead people and wasn't mentally ill, just tired of seeing ghosts. Yeah, definitely. I'm just sure someone could use it in an argument about Shyamalan's treatment of mental illness.
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2017 01:49
|
|
|
I'm fairly pissed that we didn't get to see more identities, but I guess they're trying to save some for the sequel.moths posted:I think part of the problem was that the two girls who got eaten were portrayed as just as smart, capable, brave, and kind. The only reason the main girl survives is because another man had already raped her making her 'pure' in the eyes of the villain. It was her most distinguishing characteristic. I agree with you in principle but I don't think Split did any of that. Casey was a well-developed character. I got a pretty clear image of both the good and bad influences/events from her past that have made her who she is. Yes, in the end the Beast does explicitly define Casey by the abuse she suffered, and judges her based on that, but that practice isn't being endorsed by the film. It's a hosed-Up Thing that a hosed-Up Guy does. Her history of sexual abuse is integral to her role in the plot, but this is a movie about three girls getting kidnapped and exploited by an unstable, violent sex criminal. Is it that unreasonable to portray the character most experienced with being exploited by unstable, violent sex criminals as having something of an advantage in this particular situation? Or am I just a cynical moron? Not being rhetorical here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 05:35
|
|
|
I thought this was excellent. The ending really, really cemented and elevated the entire thing in a way that I did not see coming at all. Really exciting, and a strong return to form for Shyamalan.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2017 08:41
|
|
|
Just got finished with this and I thought it was terrible. I will try to articulate myself better shortly. Edit: I'm struggling to put my finger on why I thought this was so bad. The acting was generally fine with McAvoy obviously being the most entertaining part. I thought it was potentially interesting that, as mentioned before, what might be taken as Casey's cool head and rationality might actually have just been her past abuse making her freeze up. But it didn't really go anywhere, sure she got a gun and blasted him a couple of times at the end but by then it was too late. And that pregnant pause at the end with the cop might imply that she was not going to take it anymore, but it wasn't really clear and I'm not sure what the point of ambiguity there would be. But the thing dragging the whole movie down was every single scene with the psychologist. The actor did the best she could but the writing was just terrible, some parts of it being nothing but clunky exposition and others really feeling off in tone from the rest of the film. It felt like I was watching a completely different film, going from a tight and sinister thriller to half-baked ramblings at the drop of a hat. The dialogue in the chicken wings scene was just bizarre. Lemon fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Finally saw this movie. Somehow went in completely blind (aside from the fact that it's about a guy with multiple personalities). I thought it was excellent. In regards to the first "twist" in the first post, I don't see how it's a twist in any way. We are told over and over that something is going to happen. We are flat out told the conditions how it can happen, and then it happens. That's the OPPOSITE of a twist, that's a plot coming to completion. The VERY end of the movie completely took me off guard and I thought it was fantastic and did help to provide some better context for the overall movie.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2017 05:06
|
|
|
zandert33 posted:In regards to the first "twist" in the first post, I don't see how it's a twist in any way. We are told over and over that something is going to happen. We are flat out told the conditions how it can happen, and then it happens. That's the OPPOSITE of a twist, that's a plot coming to completion. I agree to a certain extent - Split in both case basically apes Unbreakable but I can still argue the first point being a twist, albeit a minor one in comparison to the second. Consider that in the latter movie, Elijah spends most of it telling David that "something is going to happen" (he's a superhero?), the "conditions (how) it can happen" (lack of illness/injury, apparent super strength) and "then it happens" (he's a superhero!). In the case of Unbreakable, Shyamalan is pretty much proving to you at every turn that David is a superhero and we're just waiting for David's acceptance of it. The audience expectations aren't subverted whatsoever; therefore, the twist of that movie isn't in David's abilities but in the identity of the person pulling the strings all along. Split is a bit more coy about it because of the implausibility of Kevin's story of "The Beast" - at worst, we assume that the Beast will probably be a really nasty, albeit human, personality of his that is dangerous and the only ones supporting his story are three personalities that aren't exactly forthright or trustworthy. Contrast that with a mental health professional that exists as a representation of Kevin's humanity and is there to ground the audience in reality from Kevin's stories. The ambiguity is present for a reason in Split, mainly because it's trying hard to mask its connection with Unbreakable, but I think it's also because Shyamalan wanted us to believe David Dunn was a superhero in Unbreakable right from the start. I could liken the approach of the plot twist of Split to the plot twist of 12 Monkeys, so I can see your point here. When I was watching 12 Monkeys for the first time, I wasn't surprised whatsoever that time travel was real and Bruce Willis wasn't really just some nutjob for exactly the same reasons you didn't feel like this was a twist: both movies present hypothetical questions and ask their audiences to make a choice. It's diametric and you can't really sit neutral and impassive; either you believe, or you don't. I didn't believe, but I forgot I was sitting in an M. Night Shyamalan movie after a while.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2017 14:35
|
|
|
ElectricSheep posted:I agree to a certain extent - Split in both case basically apes Unbreakable but I can still argue the first point being a twist, albeit a minor one in comparison to the second. I always considered the twist in Unbreakable to be (spoilers for a 17 year old movie) that Samuel L. Jackson was a villain and has been purposefully creating havoc in order to find a "hero". I don't find Dunn being a hero to be a twist at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
Yeah, you're right. I said/believe the same thing too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2017 21:17
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
Awesome. The Visit and Split are two of his best films, so he's definitely in a creative groove right now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
Hell yeah baby.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
 Movie's gonna own
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Was a pretty entertaining movie. I liked The Village too, too bad people got so insulted about The Sixth Sense everyone decided they needed to hate him for a few years.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
Hell, I even loved The Happening and enjoyed Lady in the Water well enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
The only Shyamalan movie I outright hate is The Last Airbender and the only one other than that which I find boring is The Village, so I'm pre-sold.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 22:54
|
|
|
Daaaaaaaamn I am pumped for that!
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
Shyamalan has had so much criticism over the years but goddamn do I love what he's up to recently. Split / Unbreakable are two awesome movies and hell I'd rewatch The Happening and probably enjoy the hell out of it.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2017 10:39
|
|
|
M. night makes better comic movies than Nolan
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:Awesome. The Visit and Split are two of his best films, so he's definitely in a creative groove right now. Yeah I am kind of mega hype and I've never been a big fan of his (until The Visit and Split which are so good I can't believe he wrote them)
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
I hope Split 2 is good but I don't think Bruce Willis will put in any effort.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
TF2 HAT MINING RIG posted:I hope Split 2 is good but I don't think Bruce Willis will put in any effort. The twist will be that Bruce and McAvoy do not fight or even share a single scene together. Actually wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if The Beast kills Bruce in the very first scene and the movie is called GLASS because Mr. Glass, somehow, is the guy who stops The Beast.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2017 00:43
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/MNightShyamalan/status/889487866832859136
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 06:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 09:15 |
|
|
This movie was great. Sarah Paulson is also great and seems perfect for M. Night Shyamalan's brand of refined shlock.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2017 06:07
|
|
