Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Would it be appropriate to solicit people for a writing group here? I've got one going and it's helpful but I think a second one would help me out.
I'd like 4-5 people to (if interested) meetup on discord once a week(mostly text although we can do synchronous) and submit one page or chapter a week or so.
I am writing with the intent to publish so that would be a big part of the reason I'm putting the probably doable page/chapter request.

Pm me if you're interested . I write scifi and military scifi but I love epic fantasy, sanderson's stuff etc.

# ¿ May 15, 2021 01:51

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 15:23

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

sebmojo posted:

Absolutely fine with soliciting this, solicit away

In the hopeful vein of getting people to join a writers group I�m looking for 3-5 people to join. Write and crit with an eye to prepare stuff either for publishing or just for fun.

I�m suggesting a weekly minimum of one page or re-write but it will probably be closer to one chapter max. Whoever joins we�ll all get on the same page first.

PM me for the discord link

# ¿ May 17, 2021 00:38

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

kaom posted:

Thank you, this is really helpful!

Sounds like the winning strategy for the first big edit on my own might be inlining the internal thoughts and making sure that�s being applied judiciously (e.g. not reacting to every single thing). Then get some feedback from someone actually reading it in context to see if it�s confusing, too much, or not enough.

At least it becomes less frequent as the book goes on and the narrator starts to just verbalize her feelings instead. Really trying to get mileage out of this 1st person choice.

I chose first person for my novel also, let me pm you our discord link.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2021 01:26

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Yeah if you outline the whole thing you can get a sense of the character arcs and where they are going.

# ¿ Jun 17, 2021 15:12

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

CitizenKeen posted:

I'm sure this is going to sound dumb, but I need help with "plot".

I've been in a few writing groups, some with published authors, and every group I've ever been in tells me I've got a solid voice. My paragraph-to-paragraph/page-to-page craftsmanship is solid.

But when I write "seat of the pants" style, little to nothing happens. My characters "live" in their world but there's no action, no pop, no drama, no conflict.

I've tried setting out index cards and all that, trying to craft an outline of a story, with twists and turns, and I blank. I have no idea how to convert a "premise" into a "story". I've read more medium posts and whatever on act structure and so forth, I get the large bits.

If you distill an epic scifi/fantasy novel into two paragraphs, I can get there. But there's a chasm between two paragraphs outlining an act structure and the whole book, and I'm really, really struggling to cross that gulf.

Any advice, or books that have helped? I know, just write, etc. But I don't know how to convert "cool idea for setting with interesting protagonist" into "story".

The Saves The Cat book was the thing that made me understand plot. Also If you're wanting to join our little something awful writers group(on discord)pm me. You've got to have a rising or falling action, a climax, a catalyst etc.

# ¿ Jun 21, 2021 20:33

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

sebmojo posted:

general battutas new novel, 'baru cormorant and the endless series of unrelated explosions' is storming up the charts, we cross live to him now i

�One explosion was cool, but I thought why not up the ante and make one explosion per scene? And make a character that the reader has learned to love die in each scene. Really make it hurt you know?�

# ¿ Aug 21, 2021 02:55

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Psychomax posted:

I have the opposite issue, my scenes are all too short... How do I tell what a scene is missing?

I stole this from Jim butcher, the scene/sequel sequence here is what I'm trying to plan out for this scene I'm writing. Hit all of these points and you have a minimum scene. It doesn't have to be complicated see example:

POINT OF VIEW: Muk
GOAL: Show how Freya is doing from an outsider POV in this suitor mess
CONFLICT: Muk doesn�t like the cobbler brothers, and they are stepping on each others toes
SETBACK: Freya agrees to promenade with both a cobbler brother and Muk

Sequel 1) EMOTIONAL REACTION: Muk realizes that she is taking the middle of the road path
2) REVIEW, LOGIC, & REASON: I would probably hedge my bets as well, muk says
3) ANTICIPATION: This will be an interesting season
4) CHOICE: he chooses to write her a letter

# ¿ Aug 22, 2021 15:25

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

HIJK posted:

I was looking for book recommendations and found a website called Reedsy: http://reedsy.com It claims to network you to freelance editors and help with publishing contracts. Has anyone else heard of this?

I just got my dev editor through them for my military science fiction book. She had a bunch of great reviews but I expect it back in October so, we�ll see.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2021 23:57

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

In my opinion and the two above me will attest to this, always write to be as clear as possible. No two sentences in english should mean the same thing.

Also write to make it as easy as possible for the reader to read, like in newts book it�s pretty clear what we know and don�t knkw but the inquiry keeps me turning pages(also hot tovrash sex jokes)

# ¿ Sep 15, 2021 23:29

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Wallet posted:

The usage of 'where' in the original isn't formal but it also doesn't need to be.

That said, while I recognize that the comma after 'humidity' in the original version might reflect your intended syncopation it also makes it less clear if what comes after is an expansion on the idea of mid-August humidity or if it's an addendum to your description of the earth. It's significantly clearer (to me) if you remove it.

'Where/when' in the past tense version feels, to me, wrong, because it's signalling something that no longer happens. In the original sentence it's part of an (informal) speech pattern signalling that you've gone from telling me something about the earth to expanding on what mid-August humidity is like. In the past-tense sentence that distinction is no longer present and the 'where/when' is now out of place. Without the where/when it doesn't bother me but I also then read it as an expansion of your description of the earth.

I'm not sure I've ever enjoyed a work of fiction that dedicated itself to both of these things and I'm not sure something can be accurately described as literary fiction (which is what ultrachrist called it) if it does both of these things. The bible is only literature if you aren't a literalist.

Whoops literary fiction flew over my head. Okay, I just think write how you want, but get feedback in a workshop setting.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2021 01:55

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Dr.D-O posted:

How do you find someone to be a beta reader for a novel without being super imposing or seeming like you're trying to impress them?

In the past, any time I've asked people to read something I've written they always either are annoyed because it's work or they think I'm trying to put on an affectation.

You could offer to beta read someone else�s book crit for crit. You could also offer to pay for their lunch. I find that even my closest friends are like I�ll get to it when I get to it. It�s harder than getting someone to go to the gym with you.

Also: swag! Offer them swag.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2021 17:42

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Dr.D-O posted:

I don't really know what swag I could offer anyone.

Oh, great. I didn't realize that was an option. Thanks for letting me know!

For one book I wrote with a more contemporary scifi fantsy I am having military patches made.
Also coins because military.

For the other one it�s going to be a custom tarot style deck of some of the characters.

Leng and newts know what I�m talking about :cheersbird:

# ¿ Oct 6, 2021 02:21

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Half my writing group.. �jumps in�.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2021 02:04

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Fate Accomplice posted:

This is exactly me but applied to whole books and minus the rough draft step.

This would be me except add another orthogonal line for how well the spin off satire novel is doing in comparison.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 02:55

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Leng posted:

Peter and Karen Ahlstrom, a husband and wife team who started with him at BYU. Peter works out all of the complicated world building physics questions while Karen is the continuity editor. Both of them maintain the world building wiki, which started life as a 300k word three ring binder that he had handwritten while he was late night clerking on the graveyard shift at a hotel and according to the last publicly given word count (circa ~Jan 2015) has ~400k words in it. The wiki he uses specifically is Wikidpad

I'm not entirely clear whether this is EVERYTHING or just the Cosmere stuff. But he's released a lot of stuff since then so it's probably at like close to ~1m words by now.

Incidentally I got to the point of NaNoWriMo last week where I got fed up with my ~42 page Google Doc and started up my own wiki using TiddlyWiki. It is SOOOOOOOO much easier than using a laggy Google Doc, though I will be screwed when it gets really big. Then again I'm not writing anything as ambitious as the Cosmere so I'll probably be fine.

Uh can you elaborate on the wiki thing and how you used it?

# ¿ Nov 22, 2021 21:49

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

The serialized nature of royal road enforces my bad actual writing behavior. I imposed the mwf chapters for one book and then the F chapters for another. One way or another, chapters are getting out and i am getting that backlog written, edited and out the door.

And then I added another for the challenge. Oh boy.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2022 20:23

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

HIJK posted:

How do web serials get traction? Is there a business model or do you just post and pray? Wildbow got lots of attention but he's kind of the exception I think

https://ellegriffin.substack.com/p/zogarth

Long answer there. All of her post are good.

Short answer: have a backlog, post consistently, write well, have a good blurb and cover.

I didn't post anything until I had 40 chapters and I keep 20 chapters in the bank.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2022 01:58

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Also I have been doing a lot of review swaps with other authors and shout outs.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2022 01:59

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

kurona_bright posted:

It's an interesting interview, but these excerpts are pretty offputting tbh:

I'm not saying it's easy. But otherwise even Elle Griffin, who has nailed the marketing game as much as anyone could, even she went from a pay wall for her own novel on substack, to a different model almost immediately. A month in and she changed and then wrote about it so it's fascinating.

Mother of Learning makes money each month that that is standard fantasy.

Beware of Chicken is probably the highest grossing fic there and that's a xanxia subversion of tropes.

I think about 20 fics make enough there via patreon advance chapters to live off of.

In the web serials SA thread they are always talking about a few specific fics(TUTBAD) and i am sure that you could note that royal road just like specific things a bit more.

However for months my LGBTQ+ story has been outpacing my main novel and it's been causing me to tear my hair out since I have put so little effort into that story(Tales of the Riverfolk, now in Volume 2) which was initially made as a reader magnet for my other book( Red mist, same.world some characters carry over ). So what I am saying is that good writing is good writing and if you want to read your polygamous bisexual otters selling fish story, well loving write the drat story.

Also it's great for a ton of feedback.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2022 09:57

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Sailor Viy posted:

Thanks for pointing this out, based on the Zogarth interview I got the impression that any LGBT characters would get your story downvoted into oblivion.

https://www.royalroad.com/forums/thread/108535

The community made a list. So there is demand.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2022 03:47

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

Did someone say web serials?

Wildbow put in a lot of hard work and effort but he also got extremely lucky when Eliezer Yudkowsky gave him a shout out at the height of rationalist mania. Even Wildbow admits that this was a significant turning point and what ultimately allowed him to do what he does today. The other thing that allowed him to do it is that he was able to live off a Patreon of 1000-2000 a month before he launched Ward. The 'independent' web serial community was also a lot more active back during Worm's first few years. As a creative, Wildbow does very little to actually market his work or reach new fans. He's very lucky the Worm fanbase is so energised and has managed to get him where he is after an actual decade. But I mean, think of it this way: he's been working his rear end off for a decade and it appears he hit his peak with Ward, the controversial sequel to Worm.

If you're not posting on RoyalRoad then, well, here's the hard truth: you don't. The web serial community is a shadow of what it was just a few years ago (although RoyalRoad is doing better than ever.) I think the goon-written Katalepsis is one of the more successful web serials that doesn't post on RoyalRoad of late but it's the only one I know if that's seemed to gain any kind of independent traction (in the sense that I see people talking about it but I don't know how any numbers look.) Scratch that, Hungry does post it there. So, you post and pray. And probably write a LitRPG that hits all the right buttons for the readers.

If you're posting on RoyalRoad, then as others have said, you want to post every day and at different times of day. Preferably you want to post multiple updates a day. Getting on the Trending lists is paramount. There used to be a way to game the algorithm to make that very easy but I think they've caught it and fixed it. There is a model but even then you're relying on luck. It's no different from any other kind of online content creation where it follows a Pareto distribution (or, as Freddie de Boer pointed out with Patreon, a Pareto within a Pareto.)

If you're asking this because you're thinking of writing a web serial... To be frank, write a web serial as a way of forcing you to write x amount of words a week. I would not recommend writing it if you are intending any kind of significant income. That way, you might as well just go down the Amazon route. Even Wildbow would probably make way more money putting his stuff on Amazon than depending on Patreon donations.

When I say Amazon I do not mean Vella, their serial platform. Based on authors I know who have been using it, that thing is apparently on its last legs already and I can't imagine it lasting too much longer.

I had a story with three LGBT protagonists and it was never a problem on RR or otherwise. However, my RR traction was not particularly great as I was writing an introspective/philosophical action thriller (topped out at #118, I think) so I probably skated by the stuff someone like Zogarth talks about. Either way, I hit #2 on TopWebFiction for a while, so, it was never much of an issue.

I spoke with Elle Griffin a few times and she seems like a lovely person but I feel she fell right into the trap that so many prospective writers do when they first hear about web serials. That is, and I'm including myself in this, they think something along the lines of 'Wait, people will pay this much for [any given web serial]? It shouldn't be too hard to do that!' and immediately find out that, sure, there's an audience -- but it's an extremely limited one with very narrow tastes (see also: Vella.) Her whole interview thing seemed like an interesting attempt to ingratiate with a bunch of the biggest writers in the hopes of finding an audience that way. I think she's ditched her Substack serial writers Discord and serial subreddit she set up, too, and turned to funding a web novel via crypto apparently which feels like further evidence that she didn't find whatever returns she was looking for. She had a plan, she came out swinging, and then shifted gears very quickly.

There's an emerging band of people who want to post fiction on Substack but I have no idea how it's working out for them. Elle's own chapters seem to have less traction than her articles which is matched by what I know of Freddie De Boer's fiction. There was an article I read on Substack recently that was about the way you succeed at making money on the platform and it's big point was that, basically, you want to write something that people can't get from normal/traditional media. This is the same with web serials, which is why the big money makers are all basically LitRPGs. The issue I think Elle had is that there's just no significant audience for normal genre fiction and the number who'll pay for it is even less. They can just... go buy an Ebook for 4.99 and get a full story.

Red mist is doing just fine thank you. Not making money but getting them views.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2022 01:19

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

DropTheAnvil posted:

Hey, does anyone have any recommendations for Copy editors? The one I used before (BookSide Manner) is "booked" up for the next few months, and I need the piece edited for March.

I have one that I use and she's great. Leng and Newts can confirm(she punches up my fantasy novels). If you want i'll pm you her email.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2022 03:57

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

ultrachrist posted:

Hi goons, looking for some feedback on a long short.

Background: I used to write in genre but over the past few years, I gravitated more to literary fiction (though sometimes it's weird enough to be submitted to genre mags too). Then, early last year, I was feeling inspired by the Gormenghast novels as well as Piranesi and wrote a ~8800 story in a castle. I polished it and submitted it and got some feedback from the EIC at Beneath Ceaseless Skies but barely anywhere considers such long stories so that was mostly the end of that. I found myself thinking about it lately, possibly expanding upon it. And since I now have a years worth of distance, feels easy to just post on the internet!

I'm not in dire need of line edits, but feel free to call anything out, especially clunky or difficult to understand sentences. Curious about story, character, pacing, overall feel... all that stuff. Anything you want to say really.

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16xpqZmGD4noL8l07YjcHglUCj05_j_OjrwkZ1qTqbzo/edit?usp=sharing

I can post the gist of the professional feedback I got later, just don't want it to color initial opinion.

I'm not likely to take a look before the weekend but post the feedback in a spoiler as I want to test my chops.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 23:54

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Alright so first passage I get a big white room effect and I understand that it is a beautiful room, but I have no idea that our characters are human or what or where they are in the room. I think it's a long way until I actually figure out a bit of what is going on. That's something that seems to be genre? The closest books I can relate to this in prose I think is probably Gideon or Harrow the ninth.

However the feeling I get is a cross between the malazan book of the fallen, the snake (spoilers near the end: a line of hundreds of children that feed on whatever they find) meets Piranesi. And that has to be the strangest combo I have ever witnessed. This was like tailor made for lengs preferences. It also reminds me of the last whale by lisse kirk, which was mournful in a different way.

Grammatically it is fine.
Style wise I think it hits the genre norms.
Character is where this shines, as even the castle seems to be a character.
Story wise this could be extended into a novella probably, it has legs especially if the sister and brother can develop and change as they really need to do.

I am going to repeat what I keep seeing. When was the last time you bought a short story book? Let that be your guide.

# ¿ Jan 25, 2022 00:50

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

You can also do what I did and form or join an asynchronous writers group. They're not that difficult to set up and it gets around the geography problem very easily. Time zones are meh.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2022 03:46

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Leng posted:

170k is not the worst for a standalone. Assuming you've got some fat in there (which you will if you haven't done line edits) and that beta readers don't identify glaring any issues, you're probably not too far off 150k after polishing. Which is fine, for fantasy.

On that note, have you had any readers go through it yet? If not, maybe now is the time to get some other eyes on it.

This honestly. Get other eyes on it.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2022 15:56

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Stuporstar posted:

Yes! And this kinda framing you need to do to make it sound natural. Like, as you say, characters explaining things the other characters don’t actually know (cause otherwise it’s the dreaded as-you-know-bob). Or having the character remember something important when it’s important to them, like finding their dead mother’s necklace and having a bunch of memories well up. Or having to recite some piece of history for an oral exam. Or talking about things like it’s everyday and letting the reader get stuff from context. There’s so many ways to weave information into the narrative, that just having the character think, “Oh yes, today is Exposition Day, where we all think quietly about the historical event that is so important to all of us. And I have been elected Prime Expositor and am expected to blah blah blah…” while they’re just sitting on page one eating breakfast. Not when you can go, “Oh poo poo, I forgot it’s Exposition Day!” instead.

E. I wanna add to this (cause I’m hyperfixating lol)

All these concerns don’t matter in the first draft.

My first drafts make all these mistakes. They contain boring procedural action, focusing on details that don’t matter, badly done expository dialogue and just shoving in the info the reader needs to know with no consideration of character and voice. This is why my last edit is focused on voice. I’m not thinking about all of this all the time. I’m only thinking about it now, in the final draft, after a complete revision of stuff to get the plot events in the right order.

And applying it to your writing is nowhere near as complicated as it seems (when I’m getting all philosophical about the art in this thread because I wanna have a discussion dammit.)

There are actually only four criteria you need to do this kind of edit (for 1st person):

1. Does this sentence naturally come from the character’s pov or am I accidentally writing like it’s 3rd person?
2: Does the character have knowledge/talk about things they possibly could not have known?
3. Does my character have a reason to say or think this or directly tell the reader (if you’re acknowledging the reader exists, or another character they’re writing to etc.) and if not can I work it in more naturally?
4. Does this sound like my character or does it just sound like me?

That’s it. It’s not that hard. But it’s a layer you don’t need to think about in your first draft, just get the story down.

Thanks for this. My first person book is about to go deep in the second draft and I now have a strong sense of who the MC is and I'm like "what else do they need to know about him?"

# ¿ Mar 3, 2024 03:47

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 15:23

Dream Weaver: Jan 23, 2007; Sweat Baby, sweat baby

Eric the Mauve posted:

Fun experiment if your story's not clicking and you're getting frustrated with it: Go all J.M. Barrie/Lemony Snicket on it. Seriously, just rewrite it in the voice of a narrator who thinks the story is trash and the characters deserved more suffering than they got.

What you end up with won't likely be any good on its own. But it's fun, and the exercise might open up some possibility space for you.

Well that's certainly an idea that I might use on my next WIP.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2024 00:12

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Fiction Writing Advice and Discussion: Read. Write. Crit. Repeat.