A human heart posted:

Isn't a lot of this advice quite biased in favour of extremely formulaic genre fiction narratives with plot and characters as the main focus. like you're spending all this time talking about plot but lots of great books don't have much of a plot or its fairly unimportant?

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

Hawklad posted:

This for sure.

Also, here's one I'm guilty of -- avoid adding action to dialogue tags.

"Get the gently caress out," Hawklad said, as he stomped his foot and pointed to the door.

reads much better as

"Get the gently caress out," Hawklad said. He stomped his foot and pointed to the door.

The dialogue should be important enough to stand on its own. And so should the action.

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

Well that's definitely not a mandatory way to start a story, soooooooo....

The Snows of Kilimanjaro, by Ernest Hemingway
The marvelous thing is that it's painless," he said. "That's how you know when it starts."

"Is it really?"

"Absolutely. I'm awfully sorry about the odor though. That must bother you."

"Don't! Please don't."

"Look at them," he said. "Now is it sight or is it scent that brings them like that?"

In the Penal Colony, by Franz Kafka

"It’s a peculiar apparatus,” said the Officer to the Traveler, gazing with a certain admiration at the device, with which he was, of course, thoroughly familiar. It appeared that the Traveler had responded to the invitation of the Commandant only out of politeness, when he had been invited to attend the execution of a soldier condemned for disobeying and insulting his superior. Of course, interest in the execution was not very high, not even in the penal colony itself.

A Good Man Is Hard to Find, by Flannery O'Connor

The grandmother didn't want to go to Florida. She wanted to visit some of her connections in east Tennessee and she was seizing at every chance to change Bailey's mind. Bailey was the son she lived with, her only boy. He was sitting on the edge of his chair at the table, bent over the orange sports section of the Journal. "Now look here, Bailey," she said, "see here, read this," and she stood with one hand on her thin hip and the other rattling the newspaper at his bald head. "Here this fellow that calls himself The Misfit is aloose from the Federal Pen and headed toward Florida and you read here what it says he did to these people. Just you read it. I wouldn't take my children in any direction with a criminal like that aloose in it. I couldn't answer to my conscience if I did."

I, Robot, by Isaac Asimov

I looked at my notes and I didn't like them. I'd spent three days at U. S. Robots and might as well have spent them at home with the Encyclopedia Tellurica.

The Yellow Wallpaper, by Charlotte Perkins Gilman

It is very seldom that mere ordinary people like John and myself secure ancestral halls for the summer.

A colonial mansion, a hereditary estate, I would say a haunted house, and reach the height of romantic felicity—but that would be asking too much of fate!

Still I will proudly declare that there is something queer about it.

A Very Old Man With Enormous Wings, by Gabriel Garcia Marquez

On the third day of rain they had killed so many crabs inside the house that Pelayo had to cross his drenched courtyard and throw them into the sea, because the newborn child had a temperature all night and they thought it was due to the stench. The world had been sad since Tuesday.

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

They are classics (and ones I can easily c/p off the internet). Feel free to add some modern examples that you think are more relevant.

cash crab posted:

Oh, right, gently caress. I also came here to ask a question. Speaking of FIRST MANUSCRIPT, I was going to start looking for an agent after I finish the second draft. I'm having an issue with query letters, and I am not sure if this is the right place for it. I am having some trouble figuring out the genre of this book, and therefore, which agencies/agents I should target. I understand the sci-fi market is highly saturated, and frankly, my book isn't in line with what most hardcore sci-fi readers would expect to be reading, either from a linguistic or plot standpoint. Also, from a really pedantic perspective, my book is technically "speculative fiction that happens to set in space". How would I explain this to an agency in a way that sounds less airy?

MockingQuantum posted:

This is what I'm doing and a lot of people are coming out of the woodwork telling me they have had a hard time finding a group with that focus.

I suspect this doesn't apply to Naerasa so much, but for everyone else who is thinking about starting a writing group with a professional aim-- please please please be honest about where you are as a writer. I've gotten some false starts in writing groups because the person leading it has never written, much less published, an entire novel, but wasn't upfront about that fact, and actually kind of misrepresented himself. When the group met the first time, it instantly put a bad taste in everyone's mouth that I think wouldn't have been there if he had just said that he was putting together a group for professional writers or people looking to publish, but that he himself was not published yet.

Stuporstar posted:

Ok, but what if your story ends up more like this?

1. A character is in a zone of comfort,
2. But they want something.
3. They enter an unfamiliar situation,
4. Adapt to it,
5. Get what they wanted,
6. Pay a heavy price for it,
7. Enter a totally loving freaky situation. Oh gently caress, what's going on?
8. Fuuuuuuuuuck! (character ends up changed into something they don't want to be)

Safety Biscuits posted:

Maybe your writing, on a sentence-by-sentence level, just doesn't stand out enough? Sounds a bit like your problem is that there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's nothing too special about it either. Networking isn't ultimately going to sell your book, you know?

sebmojo posted:

just do a find/replace instant gender swap.

Okua posted:

Here's some venting: Coming up with titles is haaaaard.
Is it even possible to come up with a fantasy title that doesn't sound cliche as hell.

crabrock posted:

here are some fantasy titles i came up with for you:

SWORD TROMBONE
SEASONAL VESTIBULE
THE OWNER OF A VARIABLE AMOUNT OF THINGS
THE REVERSE ECLIPSE
GONE BONES
LAFFY TAFFY GOBLIN SLAYER
VALEDICTORIAN KNIGHT
WIRELESS TREBUCHET
THE JOY OF IMPROPER FOOD SANITATION
A LIFE DEFINED BY BUBBLES
HUGE JACKMAN
THE GREENTHUMB WIZARD'S GROWING DIARY
WHET HOT AURTHURIAN SUMMER
EQUESTRIAN FINESSE
UNITED STEAKS
PIG WHIP
THE PERILS OF THE FACE HUNT
THE STORM THAT WAS CANCELED

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

Edit: 30 minutes later remembered my working title right now is Amulet of Air

crabrock posted:

it's just all articles, adjectives, adverbs and prepositions now.

"A happily, cheery polkadotted around. Red, blue. The godly ghostly underneath."

-a famous book, probably

fridge corn posted:

it's not my intention to write something so obviously dense and obtuse

the old ceremony posted:

you all write like shitass balls and one day your novels will float out to sea and be lost

Burkion posted:

Lost stories are better than the ones you can actively read anyways

Anything could happen in a lost story

More mythic that way

anime was right posted:

thats a lot of words for "write more"

Mirage posted:

I tend to think of writing as more like when schoolkids doodle in their books and turn pictures of Washington into a Japanese schoolgirl or something.

Xelkelvos posted:

Dunno if this was posted in CC somewhere else: http://io9.gizmodo.com/write-a-short-story-about-the-economics-of-the-future-a-1800020162

I'm not involved in this, but I figured some goons might be interested and want to give it a shot. The subject is about a Universal Basic Income where everyone receives a sum of money that is budgeted to fit their basic needs (whatever that's defined to be) but it's given with no conditions on how it's actually spent. The word limit is 5,000. Submissions are due on this page by November 1 (the start of NaNoWriMo). The prize for being put on the short list is $1000 and the grand prize is $12,000 (paid in $1000 installments over 12 months).

Full Topic:


Might be worth a shot for some folks.

Burkion posted:

If I can honestly ask, how does this synopsis read


Alex Fernandez has always lived in a world of heroes. She, like everyone else, has found herself stranded in the middle of a war that has lasted decades. Alien invasions target the Earth for reasons unknown to any, devastating and reshaping society as we know it. In recent times a benevolent alien group have arrived to fight for humanity, defend them from the horrors of space. They are the Neo Damocles, the heroes of humanity.

Only Alex knows they are not the only champions on the planet. A mysterious collection of individuals have been fighting against the alien invaders for much longer, ones unknown to the public at large. Alex finds herself thrust in the middle of the conflict between the invaders, the Neo Damocles, and this mysterious force known to her as the Lightning Brigade. She finds herself heir apparent to a power and legacy that goes beyond anything she has ever known, one that threatens to destroy her entire life.



I feel like I can't ever explain my own writing, and this just feels like poo poo to me.

Burkion posted:

That is an excellent point. The answer is a bit complicated because the thrust of the story is Alex gaining the power to actually decide what to do for herself, at least from her POV. But I can definitely rejigger what I have with that in mind.

The last thing that happens in this story is the plot moving characters along. A huge thing with the story is consequences for your actions and characters choosing to do this or the other so I'm definitely giving the wrong vibe with that.

Burkion posted:

Without going too much into it


Yes, there are a lot of characters that move the story. Alex is kind of sandbagged early on as a very Audience Surrogate type, some one that exists in the world but doesn't have the power to really do much about it. Kind of, I guess, Luke Skywalker-y.

She is the primary POV character, but by no means the only one. The cast is quite large and spread out due to all of the nonsense going on. It's honestly been one of my bigger problems explaining the exact story because a lot of it is characters dealing with other characters doing poo poo or the fall out of certain actions. Within the first 50 pages, we have three other POV characters moving things along around and because of Alex. The core conflict comes down to, super boiled down, the miscellaneous alien invaders, the Neo Damocles, and the Lightning Brigade, and where Alex falls between them.

It's also very much book 1 of a series, so her full character development I have planned only really gets started here. Like I said, I'm terrible at trying to succinctly explain my stuff, it's just too wrapped up in my own headspace most of the time.

Burkion posted:

I misused the word.

Really should have said 'another pass' if it doesn't get attention as is. So that's my bad.

sebmojo posted:

cut the 'when a clue happens she's brought back line, its implicit in the rest. otherwise that's p solid imo

e:

Sunati’s absence brings Caden down a path of depression and isolation, but when a clue in the case breaks, she is brought back into the fold. when a rogue synthetic servant designed by the most powerful biotech company in the city goes berserk and kills its creators, Caden...

Letter Number One posted:

It’s not easy to kill a mind reader. It’s even harder to stop them once they’re dead. PERMEABLE MINDS is a 95,000 word science fiction novel that will appeal to readers of Claire North’s The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August or The Rise of Io by Wesley Chu.

Gillen Lynch has spent his entire life preparing to murder his mind-reading friend, Eduardo Sanchez. That’s why he’s not surprised when the murder itself goes off without a hitch. He manages to stabs his friend, frame his wife, and flee the city within the span of sixty minutes. Everything is going just the way he planned it - until he discovers his victim stowing away inside his head.

Andrew Warner just torched a decade-long friendship with Eduardo after confessing his love for Eduardo’s wife. All Andrew wants to do is apologize and try to make things right, but his hopes for reconciliation are destroyed when he witnesses Eduardo being murdered by their mutual friend. Fortunately, Andrew manages to escape unscathed. Unfortunately, he starts hearing Eduardo’s voice inside his head. The doctors tell him the voice is just a temporary side-effect of witnessing a violent crime, but Andrew isn’t so sure he can blame this on his imagination. Most imaginary friends can’t give out new information - and they definitely don’t ask for help avenging their deaths.

With the dead Eduardo digging through their heads, both Gillen and Andrew are forced to face the secrets and fears that sent their friendships south. If they can endure his mind games, they’ll be able to atone for their past mistakes. If they can’t, they’ll go insane.

Letter Number Two posted:

Gillen Lynch is a successful man and he’s not going to let his secrets hold him back. Unfortunately, his friend Eduardo not only knows his secrets, but can see every other thought in Gillen’s head. Gillen has spent years planning how to murder his mind-reading friend, so he’s not surprised when his plans go off without a hitch. He manages to kill Eduardo, frame his wife, and flee the city within the span of sixty minutes. Everything is going just the way he planned it - until he starts hearing Eduardo’s voice inside his mind. Eduardo knows exactly how he died, too, and he’s looking for revenge.

As if Gillen doesn’t have enough to handle, he also left a real problem back at the crime scene. Andrew Warner, another one of Eduardo’s friends, witnessed the murder in gruesome detail. He’s also hearing a voice in his head. The doctors tell him the voice is just a temporary side-effect of witnessing a violent crime, but Andrew isn’t so sure he can blame this on his imagination. Most imaginary friends can’t give out new information - and they definitely don’t ask for help avenging their deaths.

With Eduardo guiding them from inside their heads, Gillen and Andrew are forced onto a collision course where only one of them can make it out alive. If they want to survive, they’ll have to overcome Eduardo’s influence. If they can’t do that, they’ll be joining him in death.

PERMEABLE MINDS is a thriller with paranormal elements and is complete at 87,000 words.

Letter Number Three posted:

I’m currently seeking representation for my speculative thriller, LISTENER’S REMAINS, which is complete at 88,000 words. Based on your interest in_________, I’m submitting my manuscript for your consideration. 

On paper, the murder of Eduardo Sanchez looks simple. His business partner, Gillen Lynch, stabbed him with a cheese knife and fled the scene of the crime. What’s missing is the reason Gillen murdered Eduardo: his power to read people’s minds.

Eduardo’s powers have been haunting Gillen for years. The thought of someone discovering Gillen’s secrets terrifies him, especially if they learn how Gillen’s father died or how Gillen feels when he looks at other men. At first, Gillen tried keeping his mind empty through meditation, but a crucial slip-up forces him to cut off Eduardo’s power at the source. Killing Eduardo doesn’t make things better, however. Instead, it makes them a Hell of a lot worse.

In a last-ditch effort to save himself, Eduardo copies his mind into Gillen’s head. With no barriers between them, Gillen can’t stop Eduardo from digging up the secrets he’d hoped to take to his grave. He also can’t run from the police when someone else is controlling his legs. He’s scared, powerless, and unprepared to face a host of pursuers he didn’t know he had. Some are other mind readers; some have Eduardo’s copies in their heads. All of them are looking for revenge.

With his pursuers bearing down on him and his own thoughts working against him, Gillen must overcome his fears and take back his mind. If he can’t, he’ll be at the mercy of the man who has every right to want him dead.

Letter Number Four posted:

I’m currently seeking representation for my speculative fiction manuscript, LISTENER’S REMAINS, which is complete at 88,000 words. Based on your interest in speculative fiction, I’m submitting my manuscript for your consideration.

Gillen Lynch has a complicated relationship with his brother-in-law, Eduardo Sanchez. Thanks to Gillen's sister, the two men have been friends for years, but they're both keeping secrets from each other. Gillen hasn't mentioned he's attracted to Eduardo; Eduardo hasn't mentioned he's a mind reader. It's an awkward situation made that much worse when Gillen learns the truth. Betrayed by the deception and mortified by his attraction to his sister’s spouse, Gillen decides to take out his self-hatred on Eduardo by killing him.

Murdering a mind reader is no easy task, but this isn’t the first time Gillen has killed. His other victims didn’t mean anything to him, however, and they definitely didn’t use their dying breaths to copy their minds into Gillen’s head. Now, with no barriers between them, Gillen can’t stop Eduardo from digging up the secrets he’d hoped to take to his grave. He also can’t run from the police when someone else is controlling his legs. He’s scared, powerless, and unprepared to face the fallout of his actions as he flees from both the cops and a group of mysterious pursuers who are as connected to Eduardo as he is.

With his pursuers closing in on him and Eduardo threatening to tear him apart from the inside, Gillen must overcome his self-hatred and take back his mind. If he can’t, he’ll be at the mercy of the man who has every right to want him dead.

Burkion posted:

One thing I might suggest, big laugh considering my own issues with this exact kind of stuff, is lead off with the premise itself.

A murderer has his last victim literally stuck inside his head, a mental ghost that is seeking to destroy his life the same way Gillen ended his.

You seem to be burying the lead a bit too much in that regard, the last one almost doesn't explain it well enough.

Why he was killed comes after, I think. How Eduardo survives in Gillen comes after. Open with the important part. Murderer must contend with his victim inside his own head.

ketchup vs catsup posted:

In the first three Gillen's spent his entire life preparing to kill Eduardo, and in the 4th he decides to do it after finding out the guy reads minds? Which is it?

CantDecideOnAName posted:

Speaking of marketing, the fact that you have to do all the publicity and stuff yourself is the primary reason I haven't looked much into selfpub. I can't sell poo poo.

fridge corn posted:

whats a good resource for culturally ambiguous names for characters? the story im writing doesn't take place anywhere specific and i don't want my readers to think it does but i definitely don't want a bunch of dumb white people names

Stuporstar posted:

What do ya'll do when you notice you're using a particular word too much? I keep shoving "especially" into my sentences, can't think of any word that works better. I finally checked the thesaurus, and not a single word in there has the right emphasis or works in the same context. It's driving me crazy.

CantDecideOnAName posted:

As Mark Twain once said, "Substitute 'drat' every time you're inclined to write 'very;' your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be."

My problem is the same in writing as in speech; I hedge my bets with 'probably' and its ilk. I'm trying to get better with this in both forms.

MockingQuantum posted:

Thanks for the response, this is really helpful. I think I'm having exactly the problem you're talking about, where I have a couple of scenes or a mood or beats that I want in a story, but lack a larger context for them. I think additionally I have the problem that I really want to write horror, which tends to be so mood dependent, so I get wrapped up in trying to make the story ~*spooky*~ that it doesn't work on a basic storytelling level. I obviously don't know how to write great horror, but I think that may need to come after figuring out how to write a great anything.

I think I might revisit my TD entry, pull it apart and expand it, see if I can't turn it into a story that's a little more interesting and satisfying. Maybe I'm off the mark here, but it seems like figuring out how to basically tell a story and make it satisfying might be worth figuring out with short-form work, since jumping into a novel without some foundation in fundamental storytelling is probably an exercise in frustration.

After The War posted:

There will be people there of all experience levels - not only in writing skill, but the range of their interaction as well, so be ready for that. We had just finished up a "how to get better" panel where every panelist siad "you're going to start off lovely, just keep at it" in one way or another, and were taking questions. One guy stood up and said "You way we all start off bad, but I shared my first story with the 1632 fan community and they said I was great, so what do you say about that?"