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I want to talk about Joseph Gooebbela & his role in Nazi Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels quote:Paul Joseph Goebbels (German: [ˈɡœbəls] ( listen);[1] 29 October 1897 – 1 May 1945) was a German politician and Reich Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945. He was one of Adolf Hitler's close associates and most devoted followers, and was known for his skills in public speaking and his deep, virulent antisemitism, which was evident in his publicly voiced views. He advocated progressively harsher discrimination, including the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust. His main role was an ideological & propaganda one, the further the cause, to win support, to convince the people to go along with the crimes of Nazi Germany. Now I want to present this as a clean thought experiment, suppose Goebbels was not *"directly"* responsible for killing anyone, that is, let's say he didn't personally pull any triggers himself, but only motivated others to do it. What was the proper justice to be brought against him? Execution? Was he merely expressing speech? He took the cowards way out so he was never tried, but I want DnD to discuss this and come to a conclusion.
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Jan 28, 2017 11:40
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I want to talk about Joseph Gooebbela & his role in Nazi Germany He should have been executed just like all the other leaders of fascist regimes of the time who may not have directly, personally killed people themselves. They were leaders and instructors of populations that they used as a vehicle of force and violence. If you're trying to make an analogy to the nazi-punching thing, it's not the same because neo-nazi's aren't literally directing a neo-wehrmacht. If someone does end up killing people directly following Spencers instruction then he of course should be in jail, like Charles Manson.
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Jan 28, 2017 12:22
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Rakosi posted:If someone does end up killing people directly following Spencers instruction then he of course should be in jail, like Charles Manson. No-one's been killed yet, but at least one person has been punched (twice) because of Spencer's rhetoric.
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Jan 28, 2017 12:39
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Whether or not Goebbels was directly responsible for any deaths isn't really relevant? He was an avid supporter and someone to whom the rise of the Nazi party was instrumental, and he did what he did knowing full well what the Nazis would do when they rose to power. That's guilt enough. I mean the better comparison here isn't to the Nazis, but to things like organized crime. RICO laws already allow you to charge people involved in organized crime, even if they don't themselves take part in criminal activity.
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Jan 28, 2017 14:35
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Probably Because he was key to the hate campaign against the nazis targets, which deffo contributed to the genocide. Though nowadays, actual life imprisonment might better serve justice Surprise Giraffe fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 14:37
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rudatron posted:Whether or not Goebbels was directly responsible for any deaths isn't really relevant? He was an avid supporter and someone to whom the rise of the Nazi party was instrumental, and he did what he did knowing full well what the Nazis would do when they rose to power. That's guilt enough. Hans Fritszche, the guy they tried to get when they couldn't get Goebbels, was acquitted.
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Jan 28, 2017 14:38
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He absolutely would have been executed had he not offed himself. He was guilty as gently caress. I'm against the death penalty in general, but if you accept that that's the correct punishment for the Nazis, then yeah, he should have been killed.
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Jan 28, 2017 14:41
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Panzeh posted:Hans Fritszche, the guy they tried to get when they couldn't get Goebbels, was acquitted. Then again, Julius Streicher was convicted and executed for his propaganda.
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Jan 28, 2017 15:02
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Every thanksgiving I name the turkey Joseph Gobbles so I don't feel bad about eating it
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Jan 28, 2017 16:07
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100% of all nazis deserve death, sorry friend
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Jan 28, 2017 18:37
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If he was part of a group in power that was actively hurting people, he should be held responsible. I'm personally opposed to the death penalty, even for terrible people.
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Jan 28, 2017 18:44
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He should have been judged by an impartial court of law, and hopefully imprisoned and rehabilitation should have been attempted. Execution really doesn't make sense - just look at it this way: have the Nuremberg trials and their result in any way stopped Trump, Farage, or any or the other far-right-wing assholes in modern times? (Trump and Farage and all their ilk should be judged and imprisoned too, by the way, for what they are doing to the world)
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Jan 28, 2017 18:48
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Yes, obviously. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9vision_Libre_des_Mille_Collines The people who ran the radio stations during the Rwandan genocide weren't out there with machetes themselves, but studies directly linked their actions to 51,000 deaths. Three people were convicted by international tribunal in the aftermath and given life sentences. There are plenty of other examples. Goebbels was directly responsible for many, many more deaths, and he would have had a bad time at Nuremburg. There's mountains of precedent for exactly this thing in international law, I'm not even seeing where the other side of the argument is.
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Jan 28, 2017 18:49
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Yes, obviously. well you know some one out there is gonna be like "but what about free speech'
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Jan 28, 2017 19:24
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I mean, this is just one narrative I've heard about Nazi leadership... Hitler had this general idea of exterminating many people and conducting his war across Europe, and the consensus of his high command was pretty much the same. He appointed certain members of this high command not only for their structural benefit, such as their expertise in the department they would head, but also if they were just a really good Nazi. So my point here is that perhaps Goebbels was hired more like a crony and a good Nazi, then merely just filling some function Hitler needed filled. It was like, "I don't have a position for you, good Nazi buddy, but I'll make one up for you!" This is a totally nonacademic reference but Hitler's high command at times sounds like Lahey from Trailer Park Boys. "Don't you want to be ASSISTANT TRAILER PARK SUPERVISOR!?" instead, "Rudolf, you are such a good Nazi, please be my DEPUTY Fuhrer."
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Jan 28, 2017 19:25
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Peetown Manning posted:I mean, this is just one narrative I've heard about Nazi leadership... Given the evident role played by his propaganda in preparing the way not just for the Holocaust, but for the countless other Nazi atrocities, is he guilty? Incitement, assisting, or encouraging a crime - in particular one as monstrous as genocide - is undoubtedly a crime in my view. There is no question of ambiguity with respect to his intent and he has both moral and legal responsibility for the consequences of his actions. As to whether he deserved to be executed? That depends on your stance on the death penalty I guess. I'm more or less against it on principle, but for literal Nazis who deliberately undertook the slaughter of millions? Its hard to argue that imprisonment is enough.
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Jan 28, 2017 19:47
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Commie NedFlanders posted:well you know some one out there is gonna be like "but what about free speech' Not really. I mean I guess some crazy people would take it that far but I think most people who believe the US' fierce protection on speech is a good thing wouldn't have a problem with what he did not being protected speech. Besides that, he was clearly a high level associate aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise so his exact role is irrelevant anyway. I guess someone could have a blanket opposition to the death penalty, but that's boring in the context of this thread. Really, his execution would logically follow from his level of crimes compared to other nazis that were put to death. Honestly killing JG just isn't a very controversial thing. You want to make this thread interesting, let's talk about Anwar al-Awlaki. Peetown Manning posted:I mean, this is just one narrative I've heard about Nazi leadership... This really doesn't fit for Goebbels because his skill at manipulation and propaganda was evident really early on and a department of propaganda is a pretty obvious thing you would want to create. TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 19:57
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Tigey posted:I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is(?), but Goebbels was deeply involved with the Nazis from the mid-20s onward. He wasn't just some random guy who got lucky by being chums with Hitler, or by taking over a position that someone else created - he was head of their Berlin branch from an early phase and carved out a role for himself as propaganda chief. Yeah! I think that attests to the cronyism of the Nazi party. Hitler had his inner circle and friends, and they were going to have their place in the government no matter what, by virtue of their ideology. Hitler had a seat for everyone at the table and would pull up a chair too if you were Nazi enough. My point was that Goebbels wasn't just a propaganda minister duly doing his duty.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:01
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Cronyism implies nepotism + incompetence and you simply cannot make that argument work for Goebbles. There's a very obvious reason he ended up heading the department he did. Cronyism is like Trump appointing Carson to HUD just because he likes the guy. You're also not quite understanding how and why he ended up in Hitler's inner circle, which was exactly because he was really loving good at propaganda and manipulating people. Funny how that works. Anyway I agree that his exact role is largely irrelevant.
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Jan 28, 2017 20:33
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Should a getaway driver be charged with robbing a bank even though he was never inside it?
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Jan 28, 2017 20:36
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I've seen you around the forums OP and I like the cut of your jib. (I may also say something in the GBS abortion thread you appeared in but then it is an awful topic.) You take a look at things from a different angle and while the thread title has a clear literal answer I think you are trying to get at much more interesting questions, namely what is the exact nature of the laws you need to keep societies from deviating like that and, if the Germans were guilty of something other than losing the war, what does that say about how our own society was built? Personally I think that due to the you-wouldn't-believe-it-if-it-didn't-happen nature of the crimes in question you can call this an exceptional case but what's really fascinating to me is that the war against the Nazis is still ongoing. No that isn't a cheap shot at Trump supporters, I mean that if humans gently caress up the ability of this planet to sustain large societies and backslide into feudalism in the next centuries then it would be a fair argument to say that Germany needed to win the 20th C. in order for our species to progress. So support the struggle against fascism: try to encourage the ability of people to live next to each other without constant eruptions of anger by not needlessly being a jerk and also support serious attempts to fix our education system that won't result in administrative bloat and a generation of infantilized young adults. twitter and bisted fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 20:44
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Justice is a fool's errand, I'd hire the guy to make propaganda for my team. Similar to what we did with all those Nazi scientists.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:37
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Consider Streicher was convicted of crimes against humanity and executed, it's pretty safe to assume the same would have happened to Goebbels.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:51
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Kurt Georg Kiesinger got away with it so who knows.
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Jan 28, 2017 23:55
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Since the Nuremberg trials were a cornerstone for international jurisprudence over war crimes as well as other international offenses, it was important to get the system correct. For this four indictments were defined. From Wikipedia: quote:The indictments were for: How many of those charges would Goebbels have been guilty of and would it have mattered? Joseph Goebbels served as propaganda minister for Third Reich. While he had nothing to do with fighting war directly, he had a significant effect on the war effort both privately and publicly. Goebbels pressed Hitler several times to push the economy into total war mode. As the public face of war effort, he was responsible for promoting the idea of victory or death to the people. On 23 July he was named as Reich Plenipotentiary for Total War, charged with maximising the manpower for the Wehrmacht and the armaments industry. It seems likely Goebbels would have been judged guilty of all four charges and sentenced to death. The closest comparable persons in position was Joachim von Ribbentrop, sentenced to death. Should he have been sentenced to death? Yes, absolutely. He was one of the instigators of the worst war in history without any shadow of a doubt.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:40
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Hob_Gadling posted:How many of those charges would Goebbels have been guilty of and would it have mattered? Well, Streicher was indicted & found guilty of Crimes against Humanity (enough for him to be hanged) and he was a lot less close to Hitler than Goebbels. Could easily see him being found guilty of Participation in conspiracy for accomplishment of a crime against peace too.
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Jan 29, 2017 01:02
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Not really. I mean I guess some crazy people would take it that far but I think most people who believe the US' fierce protection on speech is a good thing wouldn't have a problem with what he did not being protected speech. Besides that, he was clearly a high level associate aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise so his exact role is irrelevant anyway. I guess someone could have a blanket opposition to the death penalty, but that's boring in the context of this thread. Really, his execution would logically follow from his level of crimes compared to other nazis that were put to death. Anwar al Awlaki is a fine debate to have, start a thread
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Jan 29, 2017 03:40
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Anwar al Awlaki is a fine debate to have, start a thread OP you should read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Diary-G-M-Gilbert/dp/0306806614 it's fascinating. and yes Goebbels deserved to die.
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Jan 29, 2017 04:54
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There was a reason he committed suicide, he knew he was guilty as hell. The only head-nazi stupid enough not to kill himself (before being captured that is) was Goering. Makes you wonder if Hitler kept him around for the same reason Trump kept Christie.
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Jan 29, 2017 20:13
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Dommolus Magnus posted:There was a reason he committed suicide, he knew he was guilty as hell.
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Jan 29, 2017 20:16
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Speer was a clever guy, Goering didn't take the trial seriously and thought he would just be able to soapbox. He was probably right in thinking he would be killed no matter what. Doenitz had the best defense lawyer there who wrote a book on the proceedings. It's why he got a rather light sentence for being Hitler's successor.
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Jan 29, 2017 22:01
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jBrereton posted:um what about Speer and Rudolf Höss Yes to both. next question Pochoclo posted:He should have been judged by an impartial court of law, and hopefully imprisoned and rehabilitation should have been attempted. That's a really simplistic way of looking at things for like a million reasons. Anyway, modern nationalists are their own thing and comparing them to the perpetrators of the holocaust doesn't seem fruitful to me. Obligatory disclaimer that I voted against trump and just because I'm saying he isn't hitler doesn't mean I approve of him. feller fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 29, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 22:35
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jBrereton posted:um what about Speer and Rudolf Höss Speer deserved the rope and his autobiography is one long self-serving lie.
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Jan 29, 2017 22:40
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I'm as anti-capital-punishment as they come, but drat it's real hard to justify not executing Nazi high command. I've had the same barstool arguments over whether bin Laden's execution would have been justified (as opposed to his death in the SEAL operation; I'm generally willing to give those folks the benefit of the doubt when they say he was armed*). I suppose it comes down to whether their continued existence would inspire continued lethal violence by others. * I know, wink wink nudge nudge. Even if they did put him on his knees and put two in the back of his head, it would have been morally wrong but I'm not at all sure it would have been ethically wrong. Tough problem for theory to solve, that one.
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Jan 29, 2017 22:59
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Agnosticnixie posted:Speer deserved the rope and his autobiography is one long self-serving lie.
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Jan 29, 2017 23:26
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To take a slightly different tack, do any of you think any of the acquittals or light sentences were justified?
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Jan 29, 2017 23:31
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Panzeh posted:To take a slightly different tack, do any of you think any of the acquittals or light sentences were justified? Riefenstahl was justified, for one.
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Jan 29, 2017 23:34
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In a memoir* I read of a US soldier on the western front, it mentions at least one German family that killed themselves because they were told via propaganda how savage the invading Americans are and that they were going to rape and murder them all. Something along those lines. Turns out in the story the invading Americans helped the one survivor with her garden instead of brutally killing her. Whether or not this particular story is true I don't know, but propaganda can certainly kill people and I can see this happening plenty of times during WW2. *Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II e: Also they, or he himself, deliberately added an extra zero to the end of the Dresden bombings death toll they received from the local authority which probably got more than a few allied POWs killed in retribution. 20,000 actual dead made to be 200,000 dead in broadcasts and fliers. The bombings were indeed terrible but not 200,000 terrible. wide stance fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 29, 2017 23:45
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Panzeh posted:To take a slightly different tack, do any of you think any of the acquittals or light sentences were justified? Not Speer, probably not Doenitz but the prosecution's case against him was incredibly dumb because it allowed allied navy commanders to provide his best defense, Papen should have had prison but everyone at this point knew that he was probably going to be a harmless moron rather than a powerful moron. I don't buy the acquittal of Riefenstahl and I think too much has been done in film nerd circles to whitewash her (similarly I think Celine should have been shot but only wasn't because of his nobel in litterature, his postwar output is the lovely whining of an unrepentent nazi angry that he got a slap on the wrist anyway). I don't absolutely think she deserved to hang but I don't think she deserved to walk either. Admittedly my standards (anyone who volunteered for the Waffen SS, among other things) are iirc more extreme than the soviet union's.
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Jan 30, 2017 00:05
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Considering that it was Papen who came up with the brilliant idea to make Hitler Chancellor in the first place, if they executed anyone it should have been him.
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Jan 30, 2017 05:16
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