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stone cold posted:This is pretty insanely sexist. Gengis Khan raped enough women that he's left a genitic marker in millions of people. The US army had 26,000 + sexual assaults against Female soldiers in 2012 according to a pentagon estimate. Their own drat soldiers!
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Feb 17, 2017 06:34
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JFairfax posted:Gengis Khan raped enough women that he's left a genitic marker in millions of people. Men: they're all like Chinggis Khan! Hey, did you also look up the number of men on men rape? The statistic may surprise you! I have a real problem with the way you're painting men as uncontrollable sex and rape monsters. It demeans the sense that rape is abnormal and should be punished if all men are psychopaths; they're not, and your argument is bad.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:37
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stone cold posted:Men: they're all like Chinggis Khan! erm, men on men rape is still being committed by men?!?!! my point is that rape is a tool of war and has been for all of human history right up to this day.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:39
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JFairfax posted:erm, men on men rape is still being committed by men?!?!! And what does that have to do with the price of beef futures in the Buenos Aires stock exchange?
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Feb 17, 2017 06:40
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Goebbels was def guilty
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Feb 17, 2017 06:41
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JFairfax posted:erm, men on men rape is still being committed by men?!?!! And where do victims who are men fit into your neat "all men are lusty rape monsters" paradigm? And calling rape a valid "tool of war," in present day is pretty incorrect dumbass, esp. since 1949, Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly prohibits wartime rape and enforced prostitution. quote:Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity. But yeah, it's just a tool in the toolkit, 
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Feb 17, 2017 06:43
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I didn't say it was valid or right. Just that it is. Like it or not. The geneva conventions didn't stop Americans raping in Vietnam, didn't stop all the US trained death squads in south america from raping. Doesn't stop ISIS from raping. This is one of the reasons I abhor war, because it is the supreme crime from which all others follow, and that includes rape.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:45
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JFairfax posted:I didn't say it was valid or right. Just that it is. Like it or not. Hmmm, somehow I think most men aren't sociopathic rape monsters, and that's not just how "it is." You should kind of think about getting therapy if that's your view of the world.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:49
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stone cold posted:This is pretty insanely sexist. Genocidal race wars are highly problematic.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:50
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The Kingfish posted:Genocidal race wars are highly problematic. Asserting that all men are rape monsters detracts from the abnormality and therefore undermines the scale of the atrocity of the mass rape, you idiot.
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Feb 17, 2017 06:55
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stone cold posted:Asserting that all men are rape monsters detracts from the abnormality and therefore undermines the scale of the atrocity of the mass rape, you idiot. He didn't do that, calm down. People in general are rape and murder monsters when you systematically dehumanize another group. That's just a lovely fact about humans. The problem is throwing your hands up and just saying "welp that's just the way the cookie crumbles i guess war is hell" without assigning any responsibility to the actors who did the dehumanization in the first place. Everyone involved in WWII committed atrocities, and they must be acknowledged and examined if we don't want to see the same thing happen again. Not just Germany, but the Allies as well.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:01
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stone cold posted:Asserting that all men are rape monsters detracts from the abnormality and therefore undermines the scale of the atrocity of the mass rape, you idiot. Soldiers in war are monsters. They are intentionally dehumanized through training and they are dehumanized by the atrocities they witness. War without rape is a fantasy and the inevitable rapes is one reason among many why war is inherently awful. E: soldiers in war are not "men." Men are not rape monsters, combatants are. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 07:02
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stone cold posted:Asserting that all men are rape monsters detracts from the abnormality and therefore undermines the scale of the atrocity of the mass rape, you idiot. Rape in war is the norm, not the unusual. The only remarkable thing about the Russian rape of Germany was the scale. Actually, if you look at the Rape of Nanking maybe even the scale wasn't that remarkable. it's not all men, it's soldiers. There's a difference.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:08
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If you want a really interesting documentary about how people can commit murder and rape watch the documentary The Act of Killing. It's fascinating and chilling. Also this is an incredible documentary on what war + killing does to people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0m573MxXXw
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Feb 17, 2017 07:10
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Act of Killing isn't really a good example of what we're talking about because those dudes were monsters from the start. But killing people and watching people be killed and discovering massacres and constant existential fear will turn you into an unhuman.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:17
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JFairfax posted:Rape in war is the norm, not the unusual. Rape quote:Armed groups - non-state actors as well as state militaries - often limit sexual violence by their members against civilians. is inevitable quote:Almost three-quarters (72%) of all observations involved no reports of sexual violence, whereas 6% of the observations involved reports of sexual violence at the highest level. in war? quote:While the forced movement of Palestinians out of some areas in 1948 was accompanied by a few documented cases of rape, at present neither Israelis nor Palestinians carry out sexual assaults despite the killing of Israeli civilians by Palestinian groups and of Palestinian civilians by Israeli security forces. In December 2003, I asked representatives of three human rights organizations (two Israeli and one Palestinian) whether they believed sexual assault was occurring but was not reported, or was not in fact taking place. They independently and unanimously stated that they received information for almost no cases of sexual assault and that they believed they would hear of it occurring as they did receive reports of lesser instances of sexual harassment (for example, during pat-down searches at checkpoints). It could be the case that the intensive international monitoring of the conflict deters the practice of sexual violence, but both sides do not appear much deterred in their other practices by their frequent condemnation by international actors. 🤔
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Feb 17, 2017 07:18
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The Kingfish posted:Act of Killing isn't really a good example of what we're talking about because those dudes were monsters from the start. But killing people and watching people be killed and discovering massacres and constant existential fear will turn you into an unhuman. yeah those dudes got their ideas from gangster movies lol it was more the bit where the guy casually talks about raping a 14 year old girl "it will be hell on earth your you, but for me it will be heaven"
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Feb 17, 2017 07:19
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And again if it's just about dehumanizing the enemy you haven't accounted for the mass rape of their own countrywomen either.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:22
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Well US soldiers rape their colleagues so I don't think this is too surprising.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:23
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JFairfax posted:Well US soldiers rape their colleagues so I don't think this is too surprising. And where do the men who are soldiers who are victimized fit into your paradigm of "beep bop all soldiers are rape monsters?"
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Feb 17, 2017 07:24
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Not all soldiers.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:24
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JFairfax posted:Not all soldiers. So you're not gonna read the articles because they conflict with your very dumb worldview, got it.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:25
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reignonyourparade posted:And again if it's just about dehumanizing the enemy you haven't accounted for the mass rape of their own countrywomen either. It's not about dehumanization of the enemy it's about dehumanization of the soldiers themselves.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:25
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stone cold posted:And where do the men who are soldiers who are victimized fit into your paradigm of "beep bop all soldiers are rape monsters?" are you loving retarded, not all soldiers rape, but a large number do. and who knows maybe the ones that get raped also rape??! being a victim doesn't mean you can't be a perp. I think you're the one being a bit beep boop here.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:25
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stone cold posted:So you're not gonna read the articles because they conflict with your very dumb worldview, got it. why are you denying that rape happens in war?
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Feb 17, 2017 07:26
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JFairfax posted:why are you denying that rape happens in war? Why are you denying culpability of actors and simply tossing your hands up and going "well gee, rape is inevitable, best let it slide, boys will boys will be soldiers will be rape monsters?"
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Feb 17, 2017 07:27
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JFairfax posted:why are you denying that rape happens in war? Hmm so you think that rape happens as a result of war?? Well how about these three outliers where it happened less than normal? 
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Feb 17, 2017 07:29
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stone cold posted:Why are you denying culpability of actors and simply tossing your hands up and going "well gee, rape is inevitable, best let it slide, boys will boys will be soldiers will be rape monsters?" that's not what I am saying at all? it's not boys will be boys, they're criminals and should be punished when it happens. but we shouldn't be surprised when it does because it is part of war and has been for all of human history. no, not every single soldier ever has raped, but it happens in pretty much every war to a lesser or greater degree. it is one of the reasons why war is loving disgusting and people who champion wars are awful.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:29
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The Kingfish posted:It's not about dehumanization of the enemy it's about dehumanization of the soldiers themselves. That might be your argument but you're not the only person arguing in this thread: Dr. Fishopolis posted:He didn't do that, calm down.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:31
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Stone Cold trying to advocate for the idea of a sanitary war. Extremely gross in my opinion.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:31
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The Kingfish posted:Hmm so you think that rape happens as a result of war?? Well how about these three outliers where it happened less than normal? quote:This policy brief summarizes key trends in conflict-related sexual violence in 48 conflicts in 33 African countries, encompassing 236 armed-conflict actors, including state armies, militias and rebel groups. 🤔 e: The Kingfish posted:Stone Cold trying to advocate for the idea of a sanitary war. Extremely gross in my opinion. glad you love rape, but can you keep your sexual preferences out of a discussion on the culpability of the red army in the mass rapes perpetuated in the wwii period? stone cold fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 07:31
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Those were some highly moral wars stone cold. Extremely relevant data to the eastern front 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
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Feb 17, 2017 07:43
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The Kingfish posted:Those were some highly moral wars stone cold. Extremely relevant data to the eastern front 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻 If you're going to attack the literature, you should at least read it, lest you look a buffoon. 
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Feb 17, 2017 07:46
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stone cold posted:If you're going to attack the literature, you should at least read it, lest you look a buffoon. You should probably read the studies before you post them.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:49
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The Kingfish posted:You should probably read the studies before you post them. I don't see how any of them a. undermine the argument that the red army was culpable for the mass civilian rapes of both German women and their own liberated women hundred of miles from the front and b. argue that rape in war is inevitable? so, like,  e: example: quote:As the Soviet army moved westward onto German territory in early 1945, large numbers of women were raped.4While the earlier Soviet offensives in Romania and Hungary had seen widespread rape of civilian women (particu- larly after the siege of Budapest), the practice intensified as the army moved into East Prussia and Silesia. Although women of various ethnicities were raped in the course of looting villages and cities, German women were particularly tar- geted. In German villages in East Prussia, “it was not untypical for Soviet troops to rape every female over the age of twelve or thirteen.” As the Soviet army occupied Berlin in late April and early May 1945, thousands of women and girls were raped, often by several men in sequence, often in front of family or neigh- borhood, sometimes on more than one occasion. Soldiers sometimes detained a girl or woman for some days in her home or elsewhere and subjected her to repeated rape. Even after occupation became more institutionalized, Soviet sol- diers continued to rape girls and women. Sexual violence gradually subsided as occupation authorities realized the harm being done to the Soviet postwar polit- ical project and gradually instituted stronger rules against fraternization in gen- eral and rape in particular. stone cold fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 07:52
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:No army, no group of humans can accept widespread, routine rape without completely dehumanizing your opponent and everything about them. I understand that that happens in war. I could even consider an argument that it's a necessary part of war. But your argument goes further than that. You seem to think there should be no national meditation on that for the winning side. The total dehumanization and subjugation of a population that let the Nazis commit the acts they did was a horrifying war crime, but somehow an allied nation doing the exact same thing is just boys being boys. Moreover, when it comes to rapes, it was never the policy of the soviet union that you must rape, or that rape was ever allowed - it wasn't, it was always a criminal act. But there were practical limits in actually policing that standard, on account of the eastern front being the most brutal battlefield to have ever existed, and on account of the soviet union by far being the biggest victim of the war as a whole. That's not to say anything goes. But you cannot treat allied actions similar to axis actions, nor were they ever actually the same (when you take into account context), nor is this any kind of moral relativism. There is absolutely no grounds for putting allied high command on trial.
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Feb 17, 2017 07:59
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Also the argument about the soldiers themselves is less 'boys will be boys' and more 'that is what war does to you'. Unless you have been through similar trauma, then come out the other side as a totally well adjusted and upright person (hint: you haven't, because you can't, no one can), you have no right to be judgemental. That's just pure arrogance.
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Feb 17, 2017 08:05
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rudatron posted:Also the argument about the soldiers themselves is less 'boys will be boys' and more 'that is what war does to you'. Unless you have been through similar trauma, then come out the other side as a totally well adjusted and upright person (hint: you haven't, because you can't, no one can), you have no right to be judgemental. That's just pure arrogance. I'm gonna toss out, I'm a rape survivor and I've never gone out and raped somebody....so.... e: this is also in response to JFairfax posted:are you loving retarded, not all soldiers rape, but a large number do. and who knows maybe the ones that get raped also rape??! being a victim doesn't mean you can't be a perp. stone cold fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 08:08
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rudatron posted:By putting allied commanders on trial besides nazis, you're saying that the two contexts are the same. They're not. Nazis did what they did regardless of strategic value or practical capacity. Allied commanders, including the soviets, had the goal of defeating the aggressor in a war of annihilation. An action committed in defense is not equivalent to an action committed aggressively. Rape is never committed in defense. It should be aggressively prosecuted. Allied commanders who let it happen should have been put on trial.
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Feb 17, 2017 08:13
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rudatron posted:Nazis did what they did regardless of strategic value or practical capacity. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. rudatron posted:Allied commanders, including the soviets, had the goal of defeating the aggressor in a war of annihilation. An action committed in defense is not equivalent to an action committed aggressively. Explain in detail how raping civilians in occupied enemy territory is a defensive military action.
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Feb 17, 2017 08:19
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