|
Whether or not Goebbels was directly responsible for any deaths isn't really relevant? He was an avid supporter and someone to whom the rise of the Nazi party was instrumental, and he did what he did knowing full well what the Nazis would do when they rose to power. That's guilt enough. I mean the better comparison here isn't to the Nazis, but to things like organized crime. RICO laws already allow you to charge people involved in organized crime, even if they don't themselves take part in criminal activity.
|
#
¿
Jan 28, 2017 14:35
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:57 |
|
|
Donitz should have hanged, Riefenstahl should have hanged, basically anyone in a command/authority position in the third reich should have died, unless they can prove they actively prevented atrocities or sped up nazi germany's defeat, say by passing intelligence to the allies or whatever.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 11, 2017 07:41
|
|
|
Also hanging allied bomber command is absolutely retarded, the allies didn't start the war, and their actions helped end it.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 11, 2017 07:45
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:You are literally apologizing for, and handwaving away the single largest mass rape event in recorded human history. Explain how you come to the conclusion that the rape of 2 million women, including children, near and past the end of the war justifiably prevented German aggression.   The civilians of the soviet union were the #1 biggest casualties during the war, complaining about rapes by red soldiers after their entire people had been targeted for extermination, is some real bullshit. Had the USSR done what the germans did to them, they would have depopulated germany by about 1/6th. Keep that in mind. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
¿
Feb 12, 2017 03:55
|
|
|
I mean it's not even a matter of speech for goebbels, but authority. Are people in authority responsible for the actions they ask others to do? Of course they are.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 12, 2017 04:35
|
|
|
Dude, war is hell, you cannot run a 'clean' war where everything goes according to plan, because at the center of all conflict is the human element, and the battlefield is a fundamentally inhumane environment. Soviet high command had, as their first and only priority, winning the war. Given context, that's totally understandable. If they had reports of rapes, and did nothing, it's probably because they were in a life and death struggle for survival, where anything less than full commitment had a cost in terms of human lives. Remember what these people have been through. Unless you went through that yourself, unless you can say that you can suffer what they have, and still remain 'morally pure', you have no right to judge them.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 12, 2017 05:41
|
|
|
Dr. Fishopolis posted:No army, no group of humans can accept widespread, routine rape without completely dehumanizing your opponent and everything about them. I understand that that happens in war. I could even consider an argument that it's a necessary part of war. But your argument goes further than that. You seem to think there should be no national meditation on that for the winning side. The total dehumanization and subjugation of a population that let the Nazis commit the acts they did was a horrifying war crime, but somehow an allied nation doing the exact same thing is just boys being boys. Moreover, when it comes to rapes, it was never the policy of the soviet union that you must rape, or that rape was ever allowed - it wasn't, it was always a criminal act. But there were practical limits in actually policing that standard, on account of the eastern front being the most brutal battlefield to have ever existed, and on account of the soviet union by far being the biggest victim of the war as a whole. That's not to say anything goes. But you cannot treat allied actions similar to axis actions, nor were they ever actually the same (when you take into account context), nor is this any kind of moral relativism. There is absolutely no grounds for putting allied high command on trial.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2017 07:59
|
|
|
Also the argument about the soldiers themselves is less 'boys will be boys' and more 'that is what war does to you'. Unless you have been through similar trauma, then come out the other side as a totally well adjusted and upright person (hint: you haven't, because you can't, no one can), you have no right to be judgemental. That's just pure arrogance.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2017 08:05
|
|
|
Flowers For Algeria posted:Rape is never committed in defense. It should be aggressively prosecuted. Allied commanders who let it happen should have been put on trial. Like, If you can look at a country that's been totally devastated, subject to extermination by a foreign nation, had to move vital industries several hundred kilometers over a rail network at breaking point, putting soldiers who can't speak to each other, into the field without any training (or hell, education), who are now engaged in a total + industrial war, subjected to the kind of conditions that are only really comparable to things like the ww1 trenches or particularly vicious civil wars, and then tut tut that said army wasn't morally pure and well behaved enough, you are an arrogant fool. Soviet commanders did what they need to do, to win the war, that they didn't start. Rape was never legal, it was always a criminal action. It happened because that's what the situation ensured was gonna happen. If you're not prepared to face that, if you're not prepared to acknowledge that context, you aren't ready to discuss what war actually is, or what war crimes actually are. You're just not.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2017 15:50
|
|
|
Condescending to people in a disadvantage position, who lack any of the benefits of modern day comforts or security, who are victims of trauma and embedded in something akin to a dysopia, that they sometimes aren't sane, well adjusted and perfect little doves, has got to be one of the most liberal things ever. That, and going to great lengths to excuse the nazis, by drawing false equivocations between them and allied commanders.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2017 16:16
|
|
|
Flowers For Algeria posted:Okay, it's a criminal action, so what's wrong with aggressively prosecuting the rapists and all the people responsible? Until you acknowledge that context, you are not seriously discussing the issue. Furthermore, by treating allied and nazi commanders as the same, you're saying that the two contexts are the same, which is emphatically not the case. There is no comparison between nazi commanders and allied commanders. In my view, Russian, American and British leadership did the best they could have reasonably done, in prosecuting a war that they didn't start.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 08:17
|
|
|
At no point did soviet leadership order or encourage rapes, they therefore did not commit a crime against humanity. You are arguing negligence, correct? That's not the same thing as arguing that the leadership perpetrated the war crimes themselves, ergo your entire premise (that war crimes are inexcusable) is irrelevant.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 08:34
|
|
|
Also lol, are you calling the soviet counteroffensive a war of aggression against the rest of europe? Because if so, you are legit a moron.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 08:35
|
|
|
"Did nothing to stop it" assumes a realistic and reasonable capacity to stop it, which means taking into account constraints of the system and the situation command was operating under. You, therefore, cannot dismiss context as irrelevant, as you admit to have done.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 08:53
|
|
|
Do you believe that the Soviet Union, during ww2, had the same reasonable and realistic capacity to police the behavior of its soldiers, as the United States in ww2? Because factually speaking, the Soviet Union had none of the excess productive, organizational, political and strategic advantages that the US had, at any point in the conflict. It had also suffered more from the process of the war than any other great power, while the US has suffered the least. That comparison is not a fair one.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 09:18
|
|
|
Flowers For Algeria posted:It also had a huge bureaucracy and a martial court system that was pretty well developed and used to discipline many offenses, so yes. They had the means to afford barrier troops and penal battalions even when they were actively losing the war. They arrested tens of thousands of soldiers. If you want to indict soviet leadership, you'd have a better angle on stuff like katyn, so you'd be going after stalin + the nkvd and such, because that wasn't necessary. But when you're talking rapes, you're talking individual soldiers and their immediate commanders, and the costs associated with policing all of them, after everything else that's already happened - it wasn't gonna happen.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 09:45
|
|
|
Punishing desertion over punishing soldier criminality against 3rd parties, probably has something to do with desertion having a bigger practical effect on the war effort. That's what total war looks like, you have to throw away everything else that doesn't let you win. It's good to not want that, but it's stupid to expect it not to happen in an environment of total war. The only realistic path to end wartime cruelty is to end war, or at the very least minimize the possibility of total war in favor of smaller, limited wars, where such constraints aren't as strong as they are in a total war. But if it ever does happen, full responsibility must be borne by the instigators of the war, which is this case, is the nazis.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2017 11:15
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:57 |
|
|
I mean goonswarm is already pretty popular.Flowers For Algeria posted:The Nazis bear responsibility for the war and their own crimes against humanity, not the crimes against humanity of the Allied forces. Is something that the Red Army did was a consequence of it having to adopt the policies of total war, and the nazis compelled the soviets to adopt the policies of total war, the nazis are responsible for those consequences. Like I keep having to point it, there are practical limitations to what you can and can't do, here in the real world, and you cannot blame someone for acting within those limitations. These actions are not occurring between frictionless sphere, context matters.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2017 15:40
|
|