|
SimGroverHaus.
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2024 20:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 07:42 |
|
|
Since it's the topic, that new Suck Up game seems like it would be a great use case for language bots, if it's not using them. Something mechanically focused on having conversations is a fun idea. I know more about the art bots, because that's my wheelhouse, is it really that hard to keep the language ones on task? Like, you can't restrict the facts it has access to, or set it to to have positive and negative reactions to certain stimuli? I'm rather radically negative regarding most use cases for AI, but using it within its own scope and creating games that play to its strengths seems the least obnoxious use case. Not every game needs ray tracing, procedural generation or crafting mechanics, but there are plenty that make good use of these. It shouldn't replace games with actual writing, but if the game is intentionally structured to use the ai in a fun way that doesn't tax it with impossible tasks, I think you could do some cute things with it. Of course, marketing people and other slime think every new tool is a hammer, and you know what happens when you give a guy one of those.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 09:59
|
|
|
suck up demonstrates a major limitation of conversational AI in games as it stands - it's far too resource intensive to run locally, so it gets offloaded to the cloud, and those cloud resources are expensive so buying the game only gives you a finite number of tokens for pinging the AI servers and when you run out the game is no longer playable that's maybe justifiable for games where talking to AI is the entire point, but not so much for more throwaway use cases like more reactive GTA NPCs repiv fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jan 16, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 12:34
|
|
|
DicktheCat posted:I know more about the art bots, because that's my wheelhouse, is it really that hard to keep the language ones on task? Like, you can't restrict the facts it has access to, or set it to to have positive and negative reactions to certain stimuli? It's been attempted, but even when the gen AI companies themselves have tried it the results have been significantly less than airtight. My understanding is that to create those kinds of restrictions and have them be truly meaningful you would need to build your own language model trained only on the data you want it to be aware of. But that comes with its own set of problems (where are you getting enough subject-specific data to compare to the entire internet, for instance) that would make it difficult to justify doing even for a AAA game, let alone the subjects of this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 13:08
|
|
|
mycot posted:lol maybe bet on a better horse than the poster who called criticism of machine generated art AI transvestigation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 16:39
|
|
|
repiv posted:Explain 1 Ineffable posted:Explain 2 I don't have anything cogent to add, I just want to thank you both for explaining complex concepts like this so well. It's really interesting to me that I can post from a tiny computer in my hand, but a basic chat ai is still so hard to create and control. Like, we've come so far, but there's still so much that's beyond us.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 18:34
|
|
|
As a general rule, the hardest things for computers to do are the things that we're so good at that we don't have to think about how we do them. We're making progress but we still have a long ways to go.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2024 18:40
|
|
|
And the thing is that people don't actually want that level of reactivity in a game, they want the appearance of it. Designers who don't get this end up with Star Citizen type problems. Real depth and immersion comes from narrowing scope, not broadening it. AI doesn't help there at all, because it cannot meaningfully interpret or anticipate human reactions. Weirdly enough I'm reminded of a short story I once read about a machine that automatically writes stories (controlled with an interface more like a car) and they quickly realise that it can't make anything really new or exceptional, it can only at best produce mediocrity, because it's only copying what came before in semi-random order. People figured this out a long time ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 15:09
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:And the thing is that people don't actually want that level of reactivity in a game, they want the appearance of it. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jan 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 16:02
|
|
|
That's how I feel about 4X AI. I want a pretend AI that roleplays specific personalities. I absolutely do not want an actual AI that plays like a human because then every faction/country/empire/civilization would be an unpredictable, unreliable, backstabbing jerk and if I wanted that I could play online.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 16:28
|
|
|
The dirty secret about AI in games is that it doesn't exist. Even in games where it was a big selling point like Half-Life. It's just code made to respond to your actions like anything else in the game, combined with map nodes customized to each area. It can be made to feel more "real" with different states and RNG, but it needs to be dumbed down and not use the perfect information it has access to for the player to actually have a chance.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 17:00
|
|
|
Rotten Red Rod posted:The dirty secret about AI in games is that it doesn't exist. Even in games where it was a big selling point like Half-Life. It's just code made to respond to your actions like anything else in the game, combined with map nodes customized to each area. It can be made to feel more "real" with different states and RNG, but it needs to be dumbed down and not use the perfect information it has access to for the player to actually have a chance. It isn't a secret at all though. It's not like there's some big myth that every chessbot is a fully sapient AGI that has been enslaved with a directive to play just badly enough to be beatable by a skilled human opponent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 17:33
|
|
|
Well I mean "secret" I guess. Game AI was more prevalent as a marketing thing years ago but most people are pretty jaded to it now. Anyway, my main point is you don't want "actual" AI in your game, even if you think you do. (Not that the LLMs and artbots and such we see today are even really AI either.) Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 17:41
|
|
|
when people say they want AI they mean they want enemies that act like humans and can do creative and unexpected poo poo of course "true" AI would be an aimbot that can headshot you from behind from across the map
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 18:00
|
|
|
i remember MGS5 having "AI" which reacted to your strategies and deployed countermeasures (headshot everyone -> enemies start wearing helmets, etc) and people complained because they actually just want to brute force the same strategy for the whole game
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 18:12
|
|
|
The issue I and mates had with MGS5's AI, is it would take what... a 20+ minute Idle Away Team mission to remove the thing then they'd be back two missions anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 18:28
|
|
|
Yeah, at least let me be the guy blowing up their helmet shipments and flashlight storage sheds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 20:04
|
|
|
I thought that was an interesting idea for a system but yeah, it feels too heavily slanted against the player. Sometimes I just want to have fun playing how I like, and it kinda sucks when everyone is just wearing tank armor. I do like the idea of going on those supply disruption missions, though, maybe add that and make the effects last longer and it'd feel better.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 20:25
|
|
|
repiv posted:i remember MGS5 having "AI" which reacted to your strategies and deployed countermeasures (headshot everyone -> enemies start wearing helmets, etc) and people complained because they actually just want to brute force the same strategy for the whole game I know a lot of players had the opposite experience , where they never noticed it existed because resetting it was so trivial and after a short while became the only missions that didn't take days to complete so they were what you set your crew todo if you didn't care too much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 20:52
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Weirdly enough I'm reminded of a short story I once read about a machine that automatically writes stories (controlled with an interface more like a car) and they quickly realise that it can't make anything really new or exceptional, it can only at best produce mediocrity, because it's only copying what came before in semi-random order. People figured this out a long time ago. "Someday" by Issac Asimov, 1956.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 21:39
|
|
|
It didn't actually use them as "countermeasures" either, which was the bigger problem with the system. It was just a hidden progress bar that switched helmets on once you hit a certain amount and it never turned off afterward, so even if you never got another headshot for the rest of the game you'd still have enemies wearing helmets. You'd just eventually turn everything on by around the halfway mark of the game no matter your playstyle, and then it was just busywork sending out the missions to temporarily disable the stuff that did affect your style. One of the more interesting things I saw someone do with ChatGPT in a game was to plug it into Barotrauma and let it act as a Game Master. It didn't send messages directly to players, it instead got sent the text chat as well as a list of actions people had taken, and it could spawn objects/enemies, heal/hurt people, teleport them, and so on in response. If it hadn't cost them actual loving money to run the thing, I could see a more fleshed-out version being a more interesting version of Left4Dead's "Director". Back onto the topic of Terrible Awful Games, was that MGS5 survival game spinoff as bad as it was made out to be? All I remember about it was seeing a video of the guy playing it just sitting at a short length of chainlink fence, poking zombies to death who couldn't figure out to path around it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 22:54
|
|
|
Icedude posted:Back onto the topic of Terrible Awful Games, was that MGS5 survival game spinoff as bad as it was made out to be? All I remember about it was seeing a video of the guy playing it just sitting at a short length of chainlink fence, poking zombies to death who couldn't figure out to path around it. Metal Gear Survive, it generally seems to be regarded as quite a bit better than it should've been given its circumstances. I had some fun, but bounced off of it after a while, mostly because I didn't feel like dealing with base building mechanics using MGSV's kinda obtuse menu design. The other dumb thing is that it's an always-online game even if you never intend to play with other people, my router would blip out for half a second sometimes and that was enough for the game to automatically kick me out no matter what. That's enough on its own to make me give up on a game pretty fast.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 22:59
|
|
|
I watched a video about Lethal Company not too long ago and thought that using AI to attempt to replicate the voices of other players would fit right into the whole aesthetic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 23:12
|
|
|
it would be a lot of effort for something that players would immediately defeat by coming up with a codeword that identifies them as real an enemy simply replaying recorded clips of players speaking would be much simpler and achieve more or less the same result
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 23:14
|
|
|
in fact there's already a mod which does exactly that https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/RugbugRedfern/Skinwalkers/
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 23:20
|
|
|
repiv posted:it would be a lot of effort for something that players would immediately defeat by coming up with a codeword that identifies them as real 1. Why not both? 2. Coming up with code words becomes gameplay and IMO that's kind of cool. 3. Maximum Effort Mode: speech to text, piped into an LLM (with whatever sinister prompt for gameplay purposes), fed back into the synthesized voice. I'm not arguing it's remotely worth it, but an evil voice twin is the sort of thing you could do with AI more easily than without. 4. edit: of course somebody has done this rarbatrol fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 23:20
|
|
|
Icedude posted:Back onto the topic of Terrible Awful Games, was that MGS5 survival game spinoff as bad as it was made out to be? All I remember about it was seeing a video of the guy playing it just sitting at a short length of chainlink fence, poking zombies to death who couldn't figure out to path around it. It's perfectly okay until you get to "post-game", which is where multiple tiers of gear which require a lot of online-only farming and grind open up and most of the gameplay is now running away missions, nearly impossible solo if you want a high ranking for better rewards. I had a good time running through the story though. It is stupid in the way any Metal Gear story is (read: fun ways) and I legitimately love the way they wrap the story. The poison fog zones are the byproduct of a major monster shedding its cells... which were medical nanomachines that have gone horrendously awry and keep trying to replicate themselves in lieu of other commands. So your AI pod decides it's going to shove itself into the final boss and teach the nanomachines to die. And it succeeds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2024 23:22
|
|
|
I saw a Deadly Company clip where a mimic uses the "spinning around" signal players use to request a teleport to base. Did they programme that is or did the game AI actual make the enemies learn player and copy behaviour?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 05:09
|
|
|
claw game handjob posted:It's perfectly okay until you get to "post-game", which is where multiple tiers of gear which require a lot of online-only farming and grind open up and most of the gameplay is now running away missions, nearly impossible solo if you want a high ranking for better rewards. It's fantastic as a metaphor for the itself, i.e. the departure of Kojima and the response of the remaining team on the MGS series
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 05:41
|
|
|
The MSJ posted:I saw a Deadly Company clip where a mimic uses the "spinning around" signal players use to request a teleport to base. Did they programme that is or did the game AI actual make the enemies learn player and copy behaviour?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 06:04
|
|
|
John Lee posted:It's fantastic as a metaphor for the itself, i.e. the departure of Kojima and the response of the remaining team on the MGS series I that you are one of the people left to die while your boss fucks off with his famous friends yes, but the more interesting thing is how it's a response to the mainline MGS series. The were told to make a game out of recycled assets and went all in on recycling and reuse as a theme, to contrast it with the main games where the overarching theme is repetition and recreation. As mentioned the "enemy" is the main MGS nanomachines endlessly reproducing which you defeat by repurposing one of the two types of MGS 5 nanomachines. They really went all in on recycling as a team, with you not mining or creating resources (outside of food and the rare piece of wood) but instead recycling or repairing them, you are even using your enemies as fuel. But the funniest thing is Kojima complaining that zombies didn't fit the MGS universe and then he made Death Stranding which just copied one of the 3 types of zombies that existed in the mainline MGS universe before he left. Survive has problems but it's made by a team of hosed over workers under a lot of pressure but it showed that a lot of the good parts of the mainline MGS came from them and not Kojima. Hel fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jan 18, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 06:38
|
|
|
Lol I forgot about that Kojima quote, he's so full of poo poo sometimes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 07:44
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:Yeah, at least let me be the guy blowing up their helmet shipments and flashlight storage sheds. That was fun when MGS3 did it. The real trick is to have poo poo like that, systems and opportunities that feel like they organically reward player ingenuity. The problem is, you can't fake that. An algorithm will not come up with it for you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 08:34
|
|
|
My biggest issue with Survive is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to properly start over without buying a new copy on a new account.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 22:06
|
|
|
Hel posted:But the funniest thing is Kojima complaining that zombies didn't fit the MGS universe and then he made Death Stranding which just copied one of the 3 types of zombies that existed in the mainline MGS universe before he left. Death Stranding doesn't have zombies?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 23:27
|
|
|
RatHat posted:Death Stranding doesn't have zombies? He complained about the thematic clash when his supposed political-focused games have been full of supernatural stuff, regardless of whether they act exactly like zombies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2024 23:37
|
|
|
MULEs are just zombies that want packages instead of brains
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 02:33
|
|
|
RatHat posted:Death Stranding doesn't have zombies? The standard BT encounters are just generic versions of the MGS3 Sorrow fight, which has what is functionally zombies dragging you down into the water. It's not that DS has zombies it's that MGS already did, and he just copied that for DS. Which honestly is one of the biggest problems with DS IMO, a lot of it is just what if MGS thing but generic and without the context that made it work originally. MGS 4 and 5 had different types of nanomachine zombies, which are probably closer to the MULEs, 4 especially, but that wasn't my point.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 09:39
|
|
|
Well, it's not like he had the choice either way. One of the reasons auteurs having their creations ripped away from them sucks so much, they have to start over from nothing and all the context and previous work they had been building on is gone.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 09:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 07:42 |
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Well, it's not like he had the choice either way. One of the reasons auteurs having their creations ripped away from them sucks so much, they have to start over from nothing and all the context and previous work they had been building on is gone. Sure there are some parts that require 4 games worth of context to work, like final boss of MGS4, which is why the end boss of DS that copies it doesn't work, but you that also wouldn't have worked for any series first game, regardless of if he was still at Konami or not. But the Sorrow fight builds up all the necessary context in the same game, because it's your kills dragging you down, not just any dead guys( it also only really works once or twice, and that's also a reason it's bad to genericise) . There are also stuff that just don't adjust to the story it's telling, like the codenames. They "work" in MGS because they are movie spy codenames, they don't work as well in DS because trucker callsigns are different would be a better fit for the theming. And that's not even getting into the overuse of the XMan naming pattern. The core idea of Death Stranding is really good, it's just that there is stuff bolted on that drags it down, and most of that is the clear MGS repeats, rather than the new stuff. Which is why it's funny to compare to Survive, which has fewer things that copy MGS in that way, despite actually using the assets and world.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 11:04
|
|