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im kind of stupid and would like explained to me why the national dsa seems to be advocating for a strategy of petitioning 6 hostile committees and requiring a majority of democratic representative to be m4a cosponsors to bring m4a to a vote now why doesnt the dsa advocate for single digit numbers of their candidates who their members poured blood sweat and tears into getting elected to form a caucus to be parliamentary assholes in the historically slim house majority to try to force a vote? the dsa could use as leverage the threat of using their resources to support someone else the dsa seems to think having a vote on m4a is important since they are advocating for it please let me know if im missing anything tia https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1346620453696266240 
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Jan 6, 2021 23:38
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Ferrinus, in theory if aoc et al were committed vanguards of the revolution or w/e, what should they be doing in parliament
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Jan 7, 2021 07:40
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*tech monopolies collude to successfully censor literally the president of the united states, press briefings look obviously edited, entire media whips up a frenzy for domestic terrorism laws and increased surveillance* ah a nothingburger
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Jan 10, 2021 01:10
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is access to healthcare a sober assessment of practical circumstances
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Jan 12, 2021 02:42
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also please remember the idea behind FTV, caucusing to obstruct legislation to try to extract a demand, is not a unique tactic to just the vote for speaker but basically any major legislation
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Jan 12, 2021 02:46
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Ferrinus posted:you're pulling the same switcheroo that FTV's leading lights did repeatedly in their town hall and on their other media, which is pretending that their specific idea is the same thing as access to healthcare. but, since we know it'll fail, and since we've already seen the issue of general healthcare AND the issue of short-term pandemic aid brought up, debated, and voted on in the public sphere with disappointing results, it's actually not the same as healthcare and not even likely to get us any closer to healthcare it is dismaying if they continue down this rhetorical path and abandon 'healthcare is a right' and 'm4a' and so on
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Jan 12, 2021 02:49
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it's just a couple throwaway instances and you might roll your eyes at it, but some of us are deeply suspicious considering aoc once claimed a house vote on m4a was a good idea and then suddenly started poisoning the idea of a vote the exact moment people started demanding it. she did not just say ftv was wrong. she said voting on m4a this congressional term was wrong and hurts m4a period. https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1346854291634532356 https://twitter.com/SamuelUlisesC/status/1346895133149712388
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Jan 12, 2021 07:25
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as for the dsa, they have not pivoted to "access to healthcare." they have pivoted to saying (falsely) that the speaker cannot unilaterally bring m4a to a vote, the bill cannot be voted on because it lacks financing language (?), and that the dsa has no leverage unless it has sufficient sympathetic members across 6 committees and a majority of democratic representatives cosponsoring (?). https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1346620453696266240
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Jan 12, 2021 07:34
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and yes im well aware i might look like a deranged person cherry picking this type of stuff out, but aoc used to be sensitive to the phrase "access to healthcare" https://twitter.com/AOC/status/985535201517490179
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Jan 12, 2021 07:48
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dore gave a positive shoutout on his show to the filthy trot org salt for supporting ftv if that helps
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Jan 12, 2021 23:04
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side_burned posted:I strongly agree with this. The whole force the vote thing at its core is Jimmy Doer's Twitter beef with AOC. dore is an angry shouty man rear end in a top hat but most of the people supporting it were not swept up by his exuberant charisma it was also a challenge to not just aoc but basically the entire progressive caucus and any m4a cosponsors. aoc just seemed to take the torch for being the frontman against ftv edit: i might be misreading this quoted post but letting this post stand for anyone who is unironically framing it this way comedyblissoption has issued a correction as of 23:59 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 23:55
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i mean aoc is literally doing backroom negotiation deals versus public confrontation as sawant is characterizing in that piece her rhetoric is to characterize democrats as friends and allies instead of enemies and i agree w/ sawant and lee carter that it's easier to get people riled up with public confrontation. and if it fails so what? comedyblissoption has issued a correction as of 00:20 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 00:18
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would it have been wrong 30 years ago to say pelosi is prioritizing other concerns over single payer when she was publicly saying she was for single payer
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Jan 15, 2021 02:07
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Ferrinus posted:FTV wasn't dumb in early 2019, but 
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Jan 15, 2021 23:59
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ftv was good in 2019 but unnecessary now because jon ossoff was asked if he was for m4a and he said no now lets phonebank for him
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Jan 16, 2021 00:06
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Ferrinus posted:open disdain FTV's own leaders have shown for mass social movements, both specific movements and the general concept a universal argument from ftv proponents ive heard is that they hope pugnacious rhetoric will help galvanize mass support and organization which is kind of the opposite of what you are saying here comedyblissoption has issued a correction as of 00:15 on Jan 16, 2021 |
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Jan 16, 2021 00:12
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Ferrinus posted:have you noticed how you're stuck playing a game of musical chairs? hmm, the ossoff thing didn't seem to have any traction, let's move to aoc saying the word "access" on a livestream. hm, that got shot down, let's move to the dsa statement about committees. okay, that didn't go so well for me, let's bring up the impeachment. ah hell he's got an answer for that one. maybe he's forgotten what he said about jon ossoff in this, a text based medium? should the dsa have solicited members to phonebank for ossoff after ossoff said no to m4a?
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Jan 16, 2021 00:19
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the healthcare industry and democratic establishment are not stupid and will not fall for a trojan horse of just the tip medicare for all and will thus fight it exactly like if it was medicare for all
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Jan 16, 2021 00:48
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it would have been all just according to keikaku if i had not posted in the slack
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Jan 18, 2021 14:21
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healthcare pls
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Jan 21, 2021 03:44
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Ferrinus posted:well, your problem here is that you have been tricked by a confidence game, and now are confusing a particular parliamentary stunt with the actual objective of establishing universal health care. suddenly, everything besides the specific stunt (whose only actual purpose is MPP brand-building) looks like a dismissal or even outright betrayal of your priorities. like, did you know that the hunts point people are striking for healthcare as well as a one dollar raise? yes, that's right, employer-provided healthcare, which will only serve to make m4a look less necessary. downright counterrevolutionary! Ferrinus posted:i know to an extent. it's certainly not happening in six months or something like that, and it's certainly not going to happen or not happen on the basis of who votes for pelosi for speaker. the important point is that it does not turn on how politicians treat each other on the news it's about whether or not nominal allies in the parliament should use the basic parliamentary tactic of caucusing for leverage and whether or not they should demand votes which they can do at any time aoc's current public stance is that congress should not hold a vote for m4a during this congressional term because it will hurt m4a. her stance is not limited to just the speakership election.
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Jan 23, 2021 07:07
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Ferrinus posted:in fact, the progressives caucused for leverage around that very vote, by withholding their vote until they were promised a favor in exchange. Ferrinus posted:i've noticed several of you doing this sneaky substitution now, subtly migrating from the complaint that aoc and co didn't carry out one particular parliamentary stunt to the complaint that aoc and co haven't been pushing for m4a in general. the latter, of course, is a ridiculous claim and has been discussed at length in the last few pages. unfortunately, you have been rooked by a confidence game designed to demobilize you, such that all of history becomes a series of excuses to disengage from organizing work
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Jan 24, 2021 03:50
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aoc's position is we should not have a vote on m4a aoc's statement on how a vote for m4a hurts m4a: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1339282755474042882 aoc's statements that asking for a vote on m4a is a waste of time: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1337619814744006659
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Jan 24, 2021 19:04
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 https://twitter.com/NYTStyles/status/1364940607911833602
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Feb 25, 2021 21:45
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sexpig by night posted:I think that 'be friends with everyone in the power class you're in or you're the problem' is dumb but Lee's poo poo with this was really loving stupid. Jumping the line with zero support could only end in failure, there was no way it wouldn't and he thought he could just post through it somehow. You're not a moron for inherently distrusting this kinda rhetoric because it is usually bad but this is less 'guys be friends politics is about being friends with everyone now i guess we move onto the phase where we blame lee carter for sabotaging the concept of repealing right to work for why it remains the law of the land for decades now there's just nothing that could be done it's too bad he's poisoned the well
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Mar 5, 2021 21:29
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' and more 'do loving basic elements of legislation if you're trying to solve problems through electoralism'.
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democrats: we support repealing right to work carter: ok lets actually vote on it libs: how loving dare you you have to go through the proper channels and the right committees and gladhand the beltway and get the right organizers and
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Mar 5, 2021 21:32
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Ferrinus posted:well, if it obstructs his ability to pass legislation, it means that the risk his voter base took in supporting a socialist candidate has amounted to exactly what all the finger-wagging liberals said it would, which is to say a lot of hot air and spirited performance but no real results
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Mar 5, 2021 21:34
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lee carter was mean to me and jumped the line so i will no longer support repealing right to work
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Mar 5, 2021 21:42
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it appears your proposal is lee does nothing, hopes for a groundswell of support to magically materialize in spite of doing nothing, or gladhands the beltway
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Mar 5, 2021 22:08
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can someone opposed to carter getting a vote on rtw repeal propose what carter should have been doing instead because it appears to me people are mad that he tried to do like anything at all and committed the crime of exposing democrats as hypocrites
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Mar 5, 2021 22:13
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Ferrinus posted:per friendbot2000's post, it sounds like RTW might have always been unavoidable but in the course of protesting it carter sacrificed resources and relationships that might have made him an effective representative of the working class on other legislation
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Mar 5, 2021 22:17
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this thread continues to amaze me how are people allergic to getting votes on campaign promises for superpopular legislation lmao
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Mar 5, 2021 22:19
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slicing up eyeballs posted:yeah this doesn't sound controversial to me, like if you're going to do the electoral thing then you've got to work with those freaks. if they wanted to feel good about the ~process~ of passing unequivocally good legislation, then part of your job as an elected official is to stroke their egos and play their stupid game, isn't it? Unless you've got the people power to "motivate" them to do the right thing regardless of their precious feelings.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:42
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good: bad:  sharp relief
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Mar 5, 2021 22:48
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i glanced at this thread and then googled about it and the characterization of what carter did seems totally at odds with what he did do https://www.princewilliamtimes.com/...468b390509.html quote:With his proposal to repeal Virginia’s right-to-work law bottled up in committee for the third year in a row, Del. Lee Carter tried unsuccessfully to force his Democratic colleagues to bring it to a floor vote Wednesday.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:33
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tl;dr carter's great crime is getting 12 other democrats and a bunch of activists to try to force a vote on repealing right to work instead of letting it die in committee silently for the third straight year in a row
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Mar 5, 2021 23:42
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is there a rule over winning an election as part of the democratic party and saying wow this party sucks i hate this party
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Mar 6, 2021 00:00
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i stand by all my snide comments even under assuming the absurd mischaracterization that lee carter was an rear end in a top hat to everyone around him and did this totally rambo with no support from any other democrats or activists was true because i was operating under that context at the time and b/c it's funnier
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Mar 6, 2021 00:45
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i know people laugh when regular people call biden and so on a socialist, but i mean the most popular household names who are calling themselves literally socialist are saying to support joe and it probably does a lot of psychic damage
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Mar 7, 2021 17:55
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Vahakyla posted:Sanders would have been on the stage, but is that worth losing to Trump? just to remind you that it's beyond farce, biden is literally opening multiple child concentration camps closed under protest during the trump administration. the same concentration camps kamala literally went to to protest during the 2020 campaign season.
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Mar 7, 2021 17:57
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