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Billy you loving traitor. 
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Mar 13, 2017 06:46
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Only 3 episodes left in the whole series.
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Mar 13, 2017 07:26
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I know people here will find some goofy explanation, but why the gently caress are the Spanish okay with not getting the gold now? It is literally one of the dumbest turns on this show, just about up there with Rackham surrendering to a loving sloop. Spanish governors relative murdered by Rogers is approached by Rogers. Spain is currently at war with Britain and he could just gently caress Rogers up or tell him to piss off. Instead Rogers in an incredible turn of bullshit manages to get him to take his fleet and clean up his mess, because reasons. The main "reason" because the Spanish are promised money that they were already promised before by this jackass, and there is nothing to guarantee this jackass could give it to you now. Meanwhile you are literally wasting lives and resources to help your enemy at war. I would love to hear the explanation to the King of Spain justifying this. I don't buy for one loving second the Spanish care about the pirates controlling some shitstain British pirate colony either. I feel like in a rush to end this show the plotting just feels so loving slapdash. Like the writers know where they want the show to end, but they are sort of half-assign their way through a lot of the plotting to get there. I love this show too, so I am not nitpicking to be a dick, but because it just feels dumb. Black sails usually doesn't feel dumb. Blackbeards arc ends utterly pointlessly and without any real satisfaction. Now some super wealthy Guthrie family is going to bankroll pirates to spite some idiot who married their granddaughter who may have gotten her killed. Outside of Flint and Long Johns plot, which at least is relatively logical, nothing else on this show makes any sense. gently caress tents. At least they got rid of Eleanor Guthrie who was the worst and least believable character on this show, too bad it was 2 seasons too late.
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Mar 13, 2017 11:01
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Spain retreating makes perfect sense if you accept that everyone in the show really subscribes to the dumb theory that the pirate uprising is somehow an existential threat to the entire civilisation. If it's an existential threat, then of course countries, even countries at war, should band together and pool resources against it, and not abuse one another over a victory. It's just that... This theory is dumb.
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Mar 13, 2017 15:43
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Spain retreating did make sense, since it's standard procedure for them to raid, burn poo poo to the ground and then leave it behind as a smoking ruin. But governor Raja just leaving Rogers behind in charge while saying: "Oh, we totes squared off dat spanish treasure brah, cuz my king tells me to, also in no way will I have my revenge on you in any way, even though you sadistically tortured and murdered my younger brother due to your own bloodlust!"...that was the super stupid part for me that I cannot buy. I mean...it's p obvious this had to just get handwaved, since it's the only way to get Madi in his custody and let that drive Flint and Silver apart, but cripes does it make precisely zero sense for a proud spanish governor of Havana to not just straight up murder all the englishmen, plus someone who killed his younger brother out of sheer bloodlust, after their use has expired in the raid. And at a time of war between the two countries, no less! Also I dunno...I feel like Billy turning traitor was warranted, given how no thought was given to his safety during that spanish attack. Had it not been for his former buddy there, he would've been dead now so yea...that and the brutal beating from someone whom you put into that position of power would piss most anyone off, to be sure. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 13, 2017 16:49
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Spanish governor should have totally killed Rogers and then gotten a promotion for not only having taken out an enemy of the crown but also for having captured and destroyed an English settlement. The Spanish up and loving off makes no sense and it seemed obvious that the now larger pirate army was going to face off with them and get broken. I really have no idea how they're going to be at Treasure Island in three episodes with all the outstanding plot points.
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Mar 13, 2017 17:18
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Well I can see Billy becoming the broken man alcoholic reasonably enough after all this ends. Dudes been through some poo poo
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Mar 13, 2017 18:12
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Rackham's Max impression was hilarious.
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Mar 17, 2017 02:11
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Well this episode was so boring that I imagine the next two will be the best ever.
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Mar 19, 2017 18:32
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Fauxshiz posted:Well this episode was so boring that I imagine the next two will be the best ever. Find the person who thought having the exact same scheming scene repeated with the different characters back-to-back was a good idea and make him walk the plank.
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Mar 19, 2017 18:34
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MiddleOne posted:Find the person who thought having the exact same scheming scene repeated with the different characters back-to-back was a good idea and make him walk the plank. We're not keelhauling people now?
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Mar 19, 2017 18:37
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Fauxshiz posted:We're not keelhauling people now? As the show established keelhauling is how respectable badasses go out. 
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Mar 19, 2017 18:41
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Pretty much the main interest of it was the very end, setting up Skeleton island and Hands' odd choice of letting Flint haul the cash off the boat, but being happy to chase him down afterwards, rather than just let that poor sod they knifed earlier take the shot and take down Flint on the ship without him catching any flak for it. My guess is he'll happily kill Flint...but lmao if Silver thinks he'll let the cash be retrieved and not stash it someplace on that rock for later his own drat self. So here's me hoping the last two eps deliver. I can forgive all the bullshit, Max' character essentially arriving at the exact same spot that she was at the start of Season 1 (that love matters more than ambition) and utterly wasting the audiences time for the sake of  ... I can forgive all the bullshit times people really should've been long since dead as a dodo...I can forgive all the writer self-inserts into side characters...Just gimme a solid pirate story for the last two eps, and you're okay in my books, show.
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Mar 19, 2017 18:58
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CrazyLoon posted:Pretty much the main interest of it was the very end, setting up Skeleton island and Hands' odd choice of letting Flint haul the cash off the boat, but being happy to chase him down afterwards, rather than just let that poor sod they knifed earlier take the shot and take down Flint on the ship without him catching any flak for it. He made it pretty clear, if Flint died then Silver would just instantly suspect him anyway. He needed Silver to be the one that made the call.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:12
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I don't know what the hell Flint's plan could possibly be.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:28
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To kickstart an adventure where a peg legged man named Silver is a chef on a boat that's looking for treasure on an island.
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Mar 20, 2017 04:32
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Good episode again. I loved the focus on Anne and Max. Glad to see Flint back to his usual "my way or the highway, I lost my beau so you can't have yours either" hypocrisy. Also loved the Conrad-esque "what if there's nothing but horror?" Silver is finally realising that Flint has no plan for after the war, probably because he plans for them all to die fighting. Heh.
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Mar 20, 2017 05:24
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This season kind of dragged, but it's starting to pick up steam now.
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Mar 20, 2017 05:36
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meristem posted:Glad to see Flint back to his usual "my way or the highway, I lost my beau so you can't have yours either" hypocrisy. Actually, I find it hilarious that the main reason for this poo poo going down the way it did was because Silver didn't listen to Hands on being ruthless when he decides to spare Billy. You cut someone off like that in this biz, you absolutely have to go all the way on it. Because of that Flint's plan to get Madi out was killed in its crib, since he knew all the routes for his men to get in and got them caught and executed (hell, it's the reason Rogers even knows to ransom her off). Tho I agree that Flint really not having that much of a post-war plan indicates he'd be the absolute worst choice for doing anything after it was done. Although he sorta admits to this too, by emphasizing Silver and Madi would be better suited to that part than him. Basically, Madi should've been put in charge over them all since the beginning with Israel Hands advising her is what I'm saying. Every other one of the pirates has made one or more significant errors in judgement, even Silver. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 13:53
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Invalid Validation posted:To kickstart an adventure where a peg legged man named Silver is a chef on a boat that's looking for treasure on an island. Tell me more this sounds like it would make a good book.
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Mar 20, 2017 19:39
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Is Skeleton Island == Treasure Island? (Never read that book).
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Mar 20, 2017 19:41
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Elephanthead posted:Tell me more this sounds like it would make a good book. I don't know. Sounds more like a cartoon adventure romp to me. Maybe have it take place in space?
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Mar 20, 2017 20:42
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Nah, it sounds like a Muppet musical with Tim Curry.
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Mar 21, 2017 03:29
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Solice Kirsk posted:I don't know. Sounds more like a cartoon adventure romp to me. Maybe have it take place in space? Space is good, but cartoons are silly. It shoud be live action.
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Mar 21, 2017 14:40
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Fauxshiz posted:Well this episode was so boring that I imagine the next two will be the best ever. I just skipped over all the Max subplot scenes and it was actually one of the better episodes from this back stretch of the season. CrazyLoon posted:Pretty much the main interest of it was the very end, setting up Skeleton island and Hands' odd choice of letting Flint haul the cash off the boat, but being happy to chase him down afterwards, rather than just let that poor sod they knifed earlier take the shot and take down Flint on the ship without him catching any flak for it. My guess is he'll happily kill Flint...but lmao if Silver thinks he'll let the cash be retrieved and not stash it someplace on that rock for later his own drat self. Yeah, I've been waiting and wishing all season for the pirates to start acting like actual pirates instead of noble freedom fighters, and that we could get the much more fitting story of them trying to outwit, outscheme and outfight eachother in the effort of each of them trying to secure the treasure cache for their own personal ends instead of the "pirate war against unjust civilization and the founding of Free Independent Nassau" that's taken up most of this season.
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Mar 21, 2017 17:07
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nooneofconsequence posted:I don't know what the hell Flint's plan could possibly be. It is a little silly, but my guess is to force Long John into abandoning Madi. Like someone else said, it is consistent with Flints general MO. When poo poo gets hard, Flint makes the Flint call; everyone else be damned, because he knows best. If the treasure is gone, it sort of forces Rogers hand one way or another, and I am guessing Flint figures he may die as well but the rebellion has the money to move on. Whatever it is, I doubt it is the most well thought out plan. In general if Flint wanted to just wreak havoc, he could have openly challenged Long John on trading the treasure anyway. I would be willing to bet a lot of the crew would not be loyal enough to Long John to watch their warchest literally be traded away. Also it is a pretty gigantic loving stretch to think high society people in that era would marry their son off to unnamed woman who even with the most liberal of research into her background is going to turn up as one of Nassau's most infamous prostitutes. Then again, it is no more idiotic than grandma Eleanor willing to bankroll pirates, because those are a trustworthy lot, and Nassau has always been a solid investment opportunity inbetween Pirate loving rebellions. Everything with a Guthrie on this show is a pit of bottomless  unlawfulsoup fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 12:47
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Eh, it's no more of a stretch than to assume that pirates were any sort of ideologically-minded revolutionaries. Or that they gave a gently caress about slavery.
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Mar 23, 2017 13:37
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meristem posted:Eh, it's no more of a stretch than to assume that pirates were any sort of ideologically-minded revolutionaries. Or that they gave a gently caress about slavery. You talk a lot about this and it's weird obsession about something you are incredibly wrong about, Pirates were political in fact a number of them were ex-slaves, slave ships were considered prime pirate targets because they were well stocked and they could recruit many from them.
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Mar 23, 2017 14:10
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I'd say pirates IRL certainly were political, after all they had their personal reasons for being such (not just due to some being ex-slaves, but also the vast majority of the last pirate golden age being ex-British navy that got shortchanged after Britain finally stopped warring nonstop). If they came across any group of people that they saw as loving them over before, they'd often act on the impulse to kill them if they could get away with it, profit be damned. It's just that, yea, the vast majority of them basically had show Rackham's mindset about it (minus the constant passive-aggressiveness for just straight up aggressiveness) and were political in the opportunistic sense, rather than the zealous one that Flint is in this show. In the end, even Rackham can just say: "Charles Vane's dead...I gotta take care of myself and my own and drop this war. But I am gonna try and make this rich bastard pay along the way, so the story doesn't end with him winning." CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 15:29
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socialsecurity posted:You talk a lot about this and it's weird obsession about something you are incredibly wrong about, Pirates were political in fact a number of them were ex-slaves, slave ships were considered prime pirate targets because they were well stocked and they could recruit many from them. I think you are overstating this, a few were taken on as crew if they were useful, often relegated to the most menial tasks. Often they were just left out at sea or taken to be sold. We're talking about white early modern British men for the most part, some of who have previously crewed slave ships where they treated Africans as nothing but property.
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Mar 24, 2017 01:41
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I'm glad they aren't trying to redeem Flint. He's had his sympathetic moments but they have never tried to make him a good guy which is nice. That man is a piece of poo poo and they don't try to hide it.
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Mar 24, 2017 19:26
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I want Jack and Anne to be happy and alive at the end of the show. I want flint to "die" but actually go find his lost love in that briefly mentioned colony for embarassed rich people. I want everyone to be happy, even max, who returns to the island and becomes a respectable business person and community figure. Also want maggie smith in the show some how. Him and his wife only got a single scene together where their characters even saw each other. Also his wife was on SG1, I knew I knew her from somewhere. Boy does she have a lot neck. Toby is really good people. My wife wrote a review for a film he did and he got in touch saying that it was one of the most thoughtful reviews he ever read. He's also a huge trek nerd. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 21:03
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Invalid Validation posted:I'm glad they aren't trying to redeem Flint. He's had his sympathetic moments but they have never tried to make him a good guy which is nice. That man is a piece of poo poo and they don't try to hide it. I'd say the initial label of him in Season 1 still rings super true. "The man is arrogant and presumptious." IMO, in terms of the cold hard truth, he is almost always right about what's needed for the war to be won. The problem is he's just never learned that that does not mean what he says should happen must always happen, because it winds up killing a ton of people far better than him who otherwise would not have died. And also leads to him breaking his word literally every goddamn time lol. Basically, the guy's been getting people killed for the sake of his war (and it really is only his and was maybe also Charles Vane's) ever since losing Thomas, be it indirectly or directly. But yea, Toby's portrayal of him is simply goddamn brilliant and somehow it makes me like what his character is about and understand his position far more than I should. The very moment in this last ep that he just looked at the table and recollected himself, while Silver demanded he follow him on this, I knew he was gonna just lie through his teeth to him in a composed manner, and sure enough by the end of the episode... 
CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 24, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 21:33
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Falukorv posted:I think you are overstating this, a few were taken on as crew if they were useful, often relegated to the most menial tasks. Often they were just left out at sea or taken to be sold. quote:
quote:The captives were not the only ones who were mistreated on slave ships, as Rediker points out the lash "operated without regard to race, age, gender, law, or humanity. Many of the sailors were beaten mercilessly when they would refuse to beat the slaves as harshly as the captain wanted or at all. A sailor could make roughly one to one and a half thousand dollars in current pay, which back in the eighteenth century was a fairly large sum of money for a single trip. quote:As capitalism developed as an economic system in early modern Europe, overseas colonies became increasingly important in the Atlantic trade system.[14]:10 Labor-intensive colonial plantations generated a need to find a stable, long-term labor force. Indentured servants posed a problem in that they had legal rights and could eventually become a competing force. The advantages of slave labor in comparison with the disadvantages of indentured servitude contributed to the growth of the European slave trade.[15]:144–148 Pirates were a bane to English attempts to gain supremacy on the African coast. They disrupted the flow of labor and capital by attacking, capturing and sometimes destroying slave vessels. Pirate captains often absorbed captured slaves into their crews, and blacks, both African and African American made up a substantial part of the pirate vanguard.[1]:54[16]:169–170 As long as pirates were actively disrupting the slave trade, they posed a threat to England's dominance in the Atlantic system.[16]:172 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Atlantic_World
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Mar 25, 2017 00:23
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socialsecurity posted:1/5 of Pirates were freed slaves. In this context, such a high estimate does makes sense. The second Atlantic slave trade topped from about 1740 until the end of the 18th century. The pool of black people crossing the Atlantic, free and enslaved, was then huge, much larger than in the first half. For pirates acting within The Golden Age, "opportunistic" sounds - according to the very book that you quote through Wikipedia - actually like a very good descriptor of pirates' attitudes towards black sailors. "Pragmatic" is another. Yeah, there were black pirates. Teach had 5 of them on his crew of 18, which is even more than the 20%. And some, like Kidd's mate, were even in authority positions. But once again, not all these black pirates were freed slaves. And, conversely, the book states, "pirates generally sold captured slaves with the rest of their plunder" (after raping the women). Ned Lowe apparently lured black sailors onto his ship and then sold them off. There is a record of a black sailor who used being enslaved by the pirates in his defence at a trial. And despite Kidd's mate, again, the very book you quoted confirms that it's true that there existed a racial division, that black sailors were usually pressed into more menial tasks. So please, stop with the pretence that pirates gave an ideological gently caress about slavery. They gave it about nothing except short-term profits, really. Not about any revolutions, either. The funny thing about the 'revolution' thing is, I remember Pirates of the Caribbean doing the same thing, and my and many reviews I read being similarly weirded out about it.
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Mar 25, 2017 07:07
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In the terms of this show, I don't feel weirded out by that premise at all, because it does make perfect sense. Chiefly, because beneath Flint's rhetoric is a very simple and personal reason - he lost his home and people he loved to this thing called civilization (buggery hiss!), so he intends to make it pay. Similarly, Madi's and her mother's reasons for going along with it are also very simple and personal - they'd like a place to call home where they don't have to live in constant fear of being taken away in chains due to the color of their skin (drat darkies!). I find revolutions against that kind of prejudice to be very understandable and historically apt, much moreso than POTC's general, jokey and non-descript reasons for a 'revolution' mainly for the sake of the spectacle of it in the 3rd movie. Basically...the primary motivations of the characters in the show do make sense for being the seed in which this sort of resistance can certainly happen (except in a few glaring cases this season like Rackham not just dumping Max's body before even allowing her to see Anne or Raja not murdering Rogers and all his troops at the end of his raid). It's just that yea, there is a reason why such a thing never happened when it came to pirates (though it deffo did happen in terms of slaves, look up the Haitian revolt vs France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution ) a) It'd take an absolutely ridiculous amount of luck for all the parties between pirates and slaves to agree to it, not to mention survive to even start it, which again is actually lampshaded occasionally by the show (last season Teach saying to Flint: "Either you're unkillable, friend, or long overdue." is basically this) and b) While I think that to just say none of these types of pirates ever existed in history and that they were all just utter scum is not to know human nature, there was ultimately a LOT more scum IRL than the kind shown in the show, obviously. So there never was enough of a critical mass to try for something like this, when everyone other than said revolutionaries (civilization included) was primarily looking out for short-term self-interest and daily survival in that region. Basically, Julius' point of view. Then again, the same could be said of the whole Max/Eleanor subplots of there being a suspiciously large number of women that quietly wield power, or there just so happens to be another one for Max to make a connection with in Philadelphia (how handy), as opposed to RL where they, sadly, far more often found themselves chained by their husbands or dead whenever they tried for it. So yea, I'd be interested to see something super-realistic like that on pirates but lol...you can label that deficiency on just about ANY show set in any historical period before the 20th century TBH, be it fictional or adhering to some measure of 'reality'. Even 'Vikings' carefully omits a ton of absolutely scummy poo poo they did and so, when it comes to commercial shows, we must all endure our 'monuments to compromise.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk0bKyxn-jk CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Mar 25, 2017 |
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Mar 25, 2017 11:08
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^^^^^ sorta related to your post, one of the things that's disappointed me the most since the pirate revolutionary war took over the overarching plot of the show, especially this season, is how it undermined the interesting philosophies, agency, motivations and basic ways of life of the lower tier pirate crew members that were established early on in the show, and also led to there no longer being any of the fun or informative scenes that would feature slices of everyday pirate life and colorful bit player crew members. Instead of pirates who held their leaders accountable if they felt they weren't acting in the best interest of the crew and their pursuit of easy plunder, we now have mindless, unquestioning drones blindly following the orders of commanders in a military campaign. It makes no sense in the context of the show either, when it's previously been established that a lot of the pirates took to the outlaw life mainly because they didn't want to be fodder for war. To summarize: more gently caress tents, less hospital tents, is the correct Black Sails formula
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Mar 25, 2017 15:24
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CrazyLoon posted:In the terms of this show, I don't feel weirded out by that premise at all, because it does make perfect sense. Chiefly, because beneath Flint's rhetoric is a very simple and personal reason - he lost his home and people he loved to this thing called civilization (buggery hiss!), so he intends to make it pay. Except... Flint's backstory is the show's invention as well. He didn't have to be like this - there's nothing in TI to beheld the showrunners to the particular choice of 'disgraced former Navy officer, tragic love backstory'. So, the showrunners' train of thought probably started from "we want a pirate revolution", and only then went in the direction of "...so we need to give Flint a good reason to lead it." And so the question is - why did they feel they needed a pirate revolution? To feed into this whole "pirates as egalitarian freedom fighters" myth that barely even fit into a PG13 movie based on a Disney ride - and even there was found to be a little bit too much for some critics? I dunno... I think I gripe about it because it seems to me like taking an easy, boring choice: "Our characters are the good guys. You know this because they are working-class bros who fight for FREEDOM. Also, in case you were worried about liking them, they exhibit a progressive 21st century mentality about racism. And, if you're a female viewer, they have barely even raped anyone since Season 1! And they don't really even care about religion! They are ideologues, really." But fair enough. I've spoken my part, and it's two episodes until the end. The preview for the next episode apparently includes a Joji duel. So there is that, at least.
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Mar 25, 2017 19:11
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I thought it was a neat piece of fight choreography that against the threat of hanzo steel, Flint backs up to a more wooded area where the katana's length is a liability rather than an advantage against his hanger.
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Mar 26, 2017 23:46
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The more I watch this show, the more I am convinced that Rogers is the real master pirate and the whole thing was just to build his origin story.
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Mar 27, 2017 03:10
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