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Paxman posted:English devolution generally involves neighbouring councils working together and traditionally they found the prospect of joining forces with the town or city next door even more offensive than just being ruled by London. There's been some progress on this in recent years though. If the people of Glasgow, Inverness & Aberdeen can handle being "ruled" from Edinburgh, I reckon the folk of Middlesbrough & Durham should suck it up & accept being ruled from Newcastle.
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Feb 7, 2017 12:47
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Guavanaut posted:Durham yes, but should Middlesbrough be ruled from Newcastle or York? Ask them which they'd prefer, then choose the other one.
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Feb 7, 2017 12:55
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Paxman posted:That's obviously not remotely what I said (though we could have another debate about whether New Labour was really that bad one day if you like) I don't think you really need to have that debate with jBrereton, who is very much in the mould of your New Labourite, judging by his posts here. I think he's more expressing frustration with the current successors to Blair's mantle who seem to be completely bankrupt of ideas. Oberleutnant posted:I thought the green belt was a product of the utopian ideas of amateur urban planners like Ebenezer Howard and his bullshit ""garden cities of tomorrow"" ideas, which definitely had an effect on house prices (because cities can't expand outside the limits imposed by the greenbelt) and the dormitory-suburb phenomenon, which leads to a vast increase in commuter behaviour, which has knock-on effects on pollution, worker income, etc, etc, etc... I think you can probably look at developing the vast swathes of brown belt sites first before getting in a panic about paving the countryside tbh. And we should probably keep some fields for collective farms to benefit the nation. The solution seems to be high quality, high density, low cost housing, which isn't just left to neglect like so many tower blocks created in the 1960s & 70s which have already been blown up, with planning ensuring that you aren't just building ghettos to shove the poor out of sight and then forgetting about them, which seems to be where it all went wrong as far as your traditional "rough" housing estates go (the Scottish examples that come to mind being Castlemilk, Easterhouse, Govanhill in Glasgow, Niddrie & Craigmillar type spots in Edinburgh, the Raploch in Stirling). A lot of people, little in the way of services aside from pubs, little in the way of parks. But pave over Rannoch Moor at your peril. (Honestly, it'd not be worth the expense. It's vast, no oval office lives there, there's barely any existing roads, just the West Highland railway between Glasgow & Fort William. If we get to a point where we're concreting that then Scotland's population is going to have to be at least 10 times what it currently is.) I don't think you need the massive circles of greenfield surrounding cities that we have now, but just having some park areas which are well looked, & ideally well lit at night time after would go a long way. Though I am not an urban planner so what the gently caress do I know? Oh yeah, and maybe build less houses in flood plains. Seems a plan. Living by the water is really nice, but clearly it has its downsides. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 16:26
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Oh dear me posted:And gently caress right off with this classist poo poo. I'm poor, I live in a tumbledown mouse-infested caravan with no prospect of getting anywhere else to live, and the countryside is one of the few things I can afford to enjoy. Seeing it get slowly destroyed all around me has been a major source of depression for me. I don't think it's really classist. Most poor urban people don't really spend much time out in the countryside. Maybe in days of old, before cheap airfares became a thing, you'd have hordes leaving Glasgow in summer for spots like Great Cumbrae, Arran, Loch Lomond & the like, but now it is probably cheaper to go to Spain for 2 weeks than Balloch for the same time, certainly not much more expensive. Obviously it differs based on what part of the country you are in (if you live in Inverness there's a higher chance than if you live in Glasgow because there's gently caress all to do in Inverness as it is, and the nearest cities are hours away on the train), and I don't think "the poor don't use it much so we can just get rid of it" is very sound from an ecological standpoint, but I don't really think it's a classist view just because you are a poor person who likes the countryside.
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Feb 7, 2017 16:33
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ukle posted:If you want the most extreme example of price differences that is probably Skipton and Nelson. Small towns 10 miles apart but one is in Yorkshire other is in Lancashire, one will set you back almost Harrogate prices for houses while the other has some of the cheapest houses in the UK e.g. you can get a 3 bed Terrace for £35,000 in Nelson. Nelson also has great transport links around Lancashire and its slightly pretty, but its suffered extreme white flight, hence why house prices are so low. Wait, what? £35k for a 3 bedroom house? In 2016? But you aren't even kidding, just had a look & found one for exactly that, which has clearly been recently renovated. Right. I know where I'm moving to. Housing boom just makes me mad. My parents have lived in the same place since 1990, 3 bedroom, semi-detached ex-council house with a pretty decently sized garden, in a cul-de-sac off the main road through a village 10 miles from Inverness. House opposite it was sold for £23,000 in 2003. 8 years later it went for £120,000. The area has definitely gentrified somewhat in the time they've been there, Highland Council stopped using it as a dumping ground for troublesome families from Merkinch & Hilton eventually, but the idea of paying six figures to live here is mind boggling. It's got rubbish public transport, there's a pisspoor jobs market in Inverness & the surrounding towns, I just don't get it. It's just stupid. It's not a bad place by any stretch and it definitely is a nicer place than it was when I was growing up, but Inverness isn't exactly overflowing with jobs, never mind decent paying ones. For a while it seemed to be a hotspot for call centre work but a lot of that seems to have drained to Poland & India. LemonDrizzle posted:having just looked it up on wikipedia, i can confidently state that Roseberry Topping is not a mountain This is like people where I grew up calling the local hill Cromal Mount. It's about 150 feet above sea level. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 16:51
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Pochoclo posted:Sorry, yes, I know Aberdeen is not the absolute cheapest place, but it's the cheapest reasonable sized city with reasonable facilities and services with a good quality of life. No, people have explained to you that Aberdeen is an expensive city. It is more expensive than Glasgow, Birmingham, probably some others because it is ridiculous. The oil boom was crazy.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:11
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Pochoclo posted:Economically, yes. Also, workers' rights, yes. Also, public services, unemployment, inflation, anyway, all fun stuff you have to look forward to. A lot of public services were better in the 70s. Workers rights absolutely were. Unemployment wasn't so bad either, at its worst it was as bad as today, and the process for claiming benefits was less stressful on the claimant. Inflation was terrible though. Can't see it getting that bad in the future, Bank of England seems to regard keeping inflation at a steady level their main job. Like, we'll lose jobs, more will become unemployed, It'll be lovely. But precisely because we won't end up like the 70s. It'll be much more like the 80s.
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Feb 8, 2017 00:28
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Pochoclo posted:Uh. The lack of statutory paid leave begs to differ. And yet union power hadn't been completely decimated, which was more what I was thinking of. Though obviously things like the working time directive are very good. One of the biggest failures of the Blair Brown years was the refusal to repeal the Employment Acts of 1980 and 1990. Utterly shameful from a workers party. Attlee's government had legalised sympathy strikes within a year of taking office. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 00:46
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Tesseraction posted:Oh yeah, and try a call centre. A 15 minute break and if you go over they dock an hour's pay. I dunno, one time when I worked in a call centre I went to meet someone during my lunch hour. And before I knew it I was an hour late back. Nobody even noticed, which was nice.
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Feb 8, 2017 13:28
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mehall posted:They don't routinely vote against a measure the public directly had a hand in saying they wanted. Well, only because we never do referenda in this country. Or at least they were very rare. And it's not like it was a landslide. 48% of the people who could be arsed to vote thought it was a bad idea, and plenty of referendum in the past have required more than 50% of the electorate to vote for it to count. But sadly David Cameron was a loving arrogant imbecile who didn't even bother putting in that protection. Labour absolutely could have opposed this on the basis that Brexit will take the economy. Extreme0 posted:I like a party that isn't full of idiots. Well that's hardly going to happen in this country, is it? namesake posted:Nah, his election in the first place just ruined the rightwing of Labour and they've still not been able to recover other than pissing and moaning about how much they don't like him, Corbyn will have lost a lot of support over this but internally his opposition is still probably weaker than him. Owen Smith tried the 'I'm Corbyn but not Corbyn!' approach and totally hosed it up and I doubt there was any grand scheme to hold back anyone better than him for a later attempt. The problem remains the lack of obvious candidates to replace him. There remains no faith in the right wing of the Labour Party among the leadership, they still haven't gotten even close to addressing the question marks left over from their last 20 years plus in charge. Maybe it's Lewis. I dunno. Leaving the Shadow Cabinet over this will probably be popular with the Corbyn support in the party. I hope. Woops, my mistake. Incidentally, I'm quite surprised at how small the rebellion was among the Shadow Cabinet. I really expected more resignations over this shite vote. jabby posted:Is there any evidence, at all, that voting for Article 50 has cost Corbyn or Labour a significant amount of support? Well, we'll see when those by-elections happen in Stoke & Copeland in a couple of weeks, until then gently caress all proof either way. But for the record, I don't care how this vote impacts Labour's support, I care because Tory Brexit is going to be really bad, for my family, for me, for the working class in general.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:18
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Labour's strategy seems to be "let Brexit happen, then show the Tories up once the bodies start hitting the ground" This strategy seems like it'd be more effective if you actively show that you are opposed to Tory Brexit rather than just say you are while voting with it...
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Feb 8, 2017 23:23
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OwlFancier posted:Attempting to table amendments is the opposition to tory brexit, simply not opposition to brexit itself. lol at expecting the British public to understand this level of parliamentary procedure. People, if they care to look, look to see who voted for what & no further than that. A Corbyn lead Labour Party will have a hell of a time explaining that.
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Feb 8, 2017 23:50
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OwlFancier posted:Then that is their drat fault. Again there is no voting position which can magically convey anything other than unconditional support, unconditional opposition, or unconditional apathy to those inclined to look at it that way. Well, conditional support was possible, but instead they just appear to have gone for unconditional support for the worst decision in British political history since...I dunno, electing Thatcher in 1979.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:04
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jabby posted:Most people aren't going to blame the opposition for something the government would have pushed through anyway. Well no, I've been quite angsty since a few days before the referendum happened, when I first figured that Leave had a far too good a chance to win just because of the general pisspoor Remain campaign and general status quo inertia. So I've been fairly angsty about this for sometime. It just got worse with Corbyn's stupid loving decision for the three line whip on this vote.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:07
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TheRat posted:Why? Did it change anything? Well, at the time I assumed it was him volunteering to stick his head onto the chopping block as a massive wave of rebellions occurred for the second time in a year, within & without the Shadow Cabinet. Clearly that hasn't happened, which is a shame. So no, of course it didn't change anything, but symbolism matters in politics when you're the opposition and you can change very loving little because the government has a solid majority. Agreeing to have the referendum without a threshold like they put on the first Scottish devolution referendum was stupid, and agreeing to give the Tories carte blancé in negotiations is stupid too, and poo poo is going to get really bad. Not immediately though, so the Brexit supporters will continue harping about how it's fine, stop talking us down & such shite until then. I mean, maybe it increases the chances of Scottish independence but frankly I'm not hopeful on that front either, when things in the economy start going really bad again (which will of course be used to cut back public expenditure even further, so much for £350m extra for the NHS!) I suspect people will be conservative and generally wary of another big constitutional change. It does mean I want to go to the doors of every liberal famous twat who begged us to vote to stay in 2014 like Dan Snow and piss on their steps though.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:22
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jabby posted:Dismay at seeing the only leftwing party leader in a generation being abandoned and cursed out by erstwhile supporters over what amounts to a meaningless vote? Oh gently caress off. It's not a rhetorical position (and even if it is, it's a poo poo one that will piss off pro-Remain supporters while not going far enough to win over Leave voters). And it's hardly the only lovely thing he's done in 18 months, just the straw that broke the camels back. He's been poison as leader in polling, and has failed to deliver the only expectations I've had as far as reform of internal Labour Party democracy and dragging the national dialogue in the country to the left and to a slightly more compassionate place. I'm not abandoning him, I'm expressing frustration at his flaws. Which is what you do with any loving politician for godsake. Just because he's the first left Labour leader since Foot doesn't mean you give him a free pass on everything loving stupid he says or does, we're not a cult for fucksake. Also gently caress off for confusing people getting really angry about something that will impact their lives as apathy. That's the opposite of apathy you cretin. Kokoro Wish posted:Adorable. Please stop engaging with the smug oval office.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:27
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serious gaylord posted:Yeah except that's just not going to happen. Remember when Corbyns big selling point was the £3 supporters? That he was popular with demographics that didn't traditionally support labour and this was going to sweep him to success at every election because instead of having to convince shy tories to vote, he'd have this huge swell of people that didn't normally vote so labour would no longer have to pretend to be tory lite to win? Quite. Brexit is very unpopular with a lot of Corbyn's support. This will hurt his support in the party. All thibs poo poo about it just being rhetoric, it misses the point. We voted for him to make rhetorical arguments in favour of the NHS, public transport being taken back to public ownership, anti-union laws being replaced with pro-worker legislation, mass building of social housing to end the housing market bubble and the fetishisation of home ownership. Not pretending to differ between Tory Brexit and a mythical Brexit which isn't a slow suicide of the British economy. And if we're talking of rhetorical gestures and general symbolism, calling for a three line whip over this vote was a loving terrible look. I don't think Labour will lose a lot of seats to the Liberals over it, only a moron would trust those loving clowns. But hey, not like there's many seats we can afford to lose. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 01:25
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jabby posted:How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles? He can vote how he likes but should have given the same courtesy to his MPs, much like the Syrian vote.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:33
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jabby posted:To be honest considering the views of most of the PLP, do you really think the numbers would be that different with a free vote? Well, we'll never know now, will we? Might have given a few more Tories a reason to think rebelling would have a point
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Feb 9, 2017 02:05
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serious gaylord posted:You don't know what cheerleading is. You have to go to a part of the Labour website.to quit. But it's really loving hard to find. Best idea is to call up on 0345 092 2299 and ask them to point you in the right direction.
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Feb 9, 2017 12:22
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Dead Goon posted:You are welcome. Either The New Statesman stole that from The Metro, The Metro stole it from The New Statesman, or the same journo sold the exact same article to them both which is fun.
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Feb 9, 2017 13:00
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TinTower posted:"Now the real fight begins" is as ridiculous as "Here's how Bernie can still win". loving of course you thought Hilary was a good candidate. Liberals, what a lark.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:24
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Fangz posted:As a lazy hypothetical, is there actually a point at which Corbyn would be perceived to have crossed some kind of red line for people? As with all things, depends on the individual. Clearly the Brexit vote was a red line for Serious Gaylord. I'd not describe it as such for me, though it was the latest in a long line of events leaving me questioning his continued leadership and whether or not in the medium to long term he's doing the cause of the left more harm than good. Stumbling block remains the question of who replaces him. I'd vote for Lewis but am not sure if he'd run against Jeremy, he seems quite loyal to him even after being shunted from Defence last year. Continuing absence of serious candidates from the right though.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:31
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jBrereton posted:Remember when Labour fought for gay rights and against the death penalty despite the public not wanting them to do either of those things.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:35
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Fangz posted:I just feel like people are tip-toeing, step by step, into the position that whatever Corbyn says or does must be good, there are no alternatives etc etc etc. As far as I can see, thanks to the lovely quality of arguments offered up in support of this decision, the brexit vote will likely be only the start of Corbyn's descent into outright cowardly irrelevance. There's undoubtedly an element of that. I have been called a red Tory on Twitter for voicing reasonable concerns about his frankly poo poo, haphazard leadership style. Some folk like to moan about the splitters on the left if you try to hold Jeremy to a fair degree of criticism. It's a pretty minority view though, I'd not worry about it yet.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:39
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Fangz posted:Alright then, because I expect that to happen soon enough. jBrereton posted:If there had been a referendum would it have been the wrong thing to do?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:46
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jBrereton posted:I dunno man Labour and the Tories have pretty extensive experience in ignoring the will of the people or at least reshaping the will of the people post facto. Oh god, gently caress off you dense oval office. When have they ever ignored the result of a referendum?
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Feb 9, 2017 14:53
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jBrereton posted:How's about the new powers in Scotland which fell short of what people were promised in The Vow? The Vow was bollocks on the front of the Record, not actually any part of the referendum on Scottish independence. This is exceedingly boring. Stop with the pedantry drivel, one Pissflaps is more than enough. We even agree that the 3 line whip was bad, especially as it just seemed unnecessary with so many of the pro-EU MPs like Umuna coming around that actually economic suicide out of poorly informed xenophobia is a good idea.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:14
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TheRat posted:Is it? I think of assassination as something more organised, with 'higher powers' involved. Did Leon Czoglosz assassinate McKinley in the States? He was a lone wolf. Wikipedia certainly calls it an assassination. Or for another British example, see Spencer Perceval was assassinated.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:19
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TinTower posted:Also, because I forgot, the government refused a request by the public to name a £300m research vessel "Boaty McBoatface". Boaty McBoatface wasn't a referendum though, it was an online poll. Slight difference, plus the fact naming a boat was a silly thing as opposed to EU membership which certain people get quite worked up about. Can't comment on the mayoral elections because I don't follow local politics in England. Were mayors for those towns in the Tory 2015 manifesto? If we'd had a general election between August and now and Labour had a commitment to oppose leaving the EU, it'd be a lot easier to go against the referendum.
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Feb 9, 2017 15:26
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MikeCrotch posted:I like how people remember WWII for being a conflict arising due to nationalism and don't really think about WWI...which was also a conflict started by a critical mass of right wing nationalistic governments in Europe leading their countries into war for jingoistic reasons. Poor Jaures. He was too good for us.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:01
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Can't definitely say who I'd vote for in a Lewis vs Corbyn race, but my gut reaction is that people like McDonnell would still work with him. In that case, and assuming Clive Lewis shitcans Seamus Milne, I imagine I'd get behind him as a left candidate who doesn't have decades of baggage and has a greater than zero chance of winning an election with a leftist platform. But we'll see. Just rumours now.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:18
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I feel confident in saying Lewis would be more electable than Corbyn, but then I think an eel would be more electable than Jezza Bae
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Feb 10, 2017 04:26
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Looke posted:Jeremy Hunt on winter pressures Oh good, starve the beast is moving onto stage 2. Or 3. I forget what stage is what but the point is, plan is proceeding as intended. Bloops Crusts posted:Is that Corbyn's lovely opinion too? We need to get out of the EU so we can raise tariffs and return to a protectionist economy, because that's pro-worker or something, any anyone who disagrees is a stupid neoliberal? The EU is the future of the world. It's peace between nations, no borders or boundaries, people from all over uniting in common interest to take a stand for democracy and liberalism against more shadowy corners of the world, like Russia and China. Just seems like the people in charge of Labor are a bunch of asshats. They're pulling a Hillary, going along with whatever the popular mood is at the moment, being totally lame and uninspiring, and not trying to sell people on an alternative vision. gently caress, if Labor won't do it, why aren't the LibDems? What the hell are they doing right now? Why haven't they cast themselves as the Remain party and rallied the 49% who voted Remain to their cause? I'm no expert on UK politics, but it seems to me if there were anybody smart in charge over there, they could cultivate that vision, tend it and nurture in, inspire passion in the populace, and exploit it for incredible political gain. Where the hell is the pro-EU leadership in Britain? Hi friend. Liberalism is a terrible ideology and you should feel bad for being a liberal. Go join the DSA, get your self educated. HJB posted:UKIP are going from strength to strength in the east, trust me, they're trying to firmly establish themselves as the party of the working class. Kind of hard to do when you're a bunch of a lunatic libertarians though.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:27
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BizarroAzrael posted:It might have been the worst thing he could have done in an impossible situation, yeah, how does one go from that to drawing the conclusion Labour will be worse for the NHS than people actively sabotaging it? By not responding to shitposters.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:45
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Grouch posted:https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/829961986519728128 It's hardly the most surprising development. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's totally expected. He cannot be long for the job.
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Feb 10, 2017 12:18
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kustomkarkommando posted:Any anointed successor is going to have to contend with accusations of being a puppet for shadowy master Corbyn, a first term parliamentarian especially - the act of attempting to select a clear successor will be enough to rile people up. I don't really buy that. We're talking about Jeremy Corbyn here. Literally nothing the man has ever done gives even the slightest hint that he is capable of being a puppet master of any sort. And even if he had that in his box of tricks I seriously doubt he'd want to be a puppet master. Seems out of character, this is a man who ran to be leader out of a sense of resigned obligation to his colleagues on the left. Baron Corbyn posted:lol at thinking the Democrats are good guys, and not the not-cartoon-villain guys. Bigger lol at thinking you're going to have real elections in America under Trump. He's already laying the foundations for massive voter suppression with his 3-5 million illegal voters poo poo. PLEASE STOP.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:33
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Jeza posted:Came to check this thread but there's not nearly enough gags about that kid burning a twenty quid note in front of a homeless person. Only part of that story we were ever likely to discuss was how Jeremy Corbyn failed to stop him burning the note unfortunately.
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Feb 10, 2017 15:53
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Regarde Aduck posted:How many freddos could i get for all that coke? More than 10
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Feb 10, 2017 19:26
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Zephro posted:Reminder: Brexit is actually, really, legitimately going to happen and it is going to be the biggest foreign policy fuckup since Suez/Iraq (take your pick) Yeah, Iraq was a bigger loss of life but Suez was definitely a bigger catastrofuck as far as British reputation went. That was probably the moment that should have popped the bubble of left over delusions of Empire, but sadly that seemed not to happen for a lot of people. It also gave the Soviets free reign to gently caress poo poo up in Hungary, which was bad. The Hungarian revolution of '56 (actually both that one & the one lead by Bela Kun) is something I really need to read more on. Anyway, Brexit could easily end up being worse than Suez.
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Feb 10, 2017 22:35
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