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TomViolence posted:True point, and it's unsettling to say the least that we have the press all but directly putting out hits on people they don't like. Still, I don't think being visibly intimidated by the bad newspaper men and cowed into silent acquiescence with the sitting government is a good look. No but it's undeniably pretty effective. In lieu of any strong motivating push to unify, which the shambolic response doesn't give, it seems like people are mostly keeping their heads down. I'm just appalled it's gotten this far; in lieu of any media controls in the face of serious crime it appears the press are now taking to open sedition. Levenson might well have been our last chance to cull the press's power.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:00
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If Labour's about pandering to Corbyn's ego he's apparently a huge masochist given most of them have spent his entire leadership term trying to openly sabotage him.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:03
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TomViolence posted:Christ alive, you lot, why do you still respond to Pissflaps? Periodically I reply to someone then realise the person they quoted was pissflaps. This fills me with deep shame, and I am sorry.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:29
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Pantsuit posted:The problem people have in this thread is seeing Brexit voters as reasonable human beings and not violent animals that want anyone not white and english dead. Nah, I know loads of people who're just credulous idiots who believe anything that's printed is true.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:53
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radmonger posted:Just, not without tanking the housing 'market' and so losing the next 5 elections on a scale Corbyn could only dream of. Do it while brexit's happening, people will barely notice alongside everything else.
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Feb 8, 2017 02:56
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mehall posted:Boom, no more Little Englanders talking about how much Scotland relies on English trade, because if they dismiss the possibility, they'll need to admit May's hope of FTA with other countries is similarly ridiculous. I don't think this is true because Britain will get all those deals because it's Great and anyone who says otherwise is Talkin Down Are Country, whereas scotland won't because it's full of picts and ghastly gaelic types who don't have our strong, imperial spirit.
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Feb 8, 2017 13:07
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Labour's got a lot of problems but a one-time gag at PMQs that three people remember isn't really one of them.
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Feb 8, 2017 16:13
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Have I read correctly that we didn't even have time to debate EU worker protections? What a farce.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:34
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/829424668511764482
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Feb 8, 2017 21:36
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I was being a bit sarcastic but christ that's a pretty sorry lineup if you're in england and didn't vote leave.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:39
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Guavanaut posted:I'd like a party that's as left-libertarian as the Greens or more, but doesn't drive itself into a conniption over the existence of chemicals or meat or power generation. It is for this reason I've never been able to take the greens seriously. Axiomatically I feel there's probably a lot of alignment; I'm very left wing and have a vested interest in making a sustainable society. Then we hit the laughable attitudes to science and I realise I'm apparently talking to a Greyhawk druid circle instead of people living in reality.
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Feb 8, 2017 21:57
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Junkozeyne posted:The problem with people only thinking of Labour as the least bad choice is that it will lead to growing apathy in the electorate, not that Labour can still count on those votes. Yeah, I was hopeful with Corbyn because he didn't seem to be least-bad. Regardless of his principles if he's still least-bad we have a problem again.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:01
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TheHoodedClaw posted:it's the complete failure of the responsibilities of Opposition since the referendum campaign started. Labour did better with their supporters than the tories did. It's also farcial to say the referendum particularly hinged on the referendum campaign; I doubt it helped but the country had, for decades, been under an assault of fake stories about EU meddling and the dangers of the outside world (New Labour was not immune, given their rhetoric on the ghastly asylum seekers).
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Feb 9, 2017 00:20
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jabby posted:Dismay at seeing the only leftwing party leader in a generation being abandoned and cursed out by erstwhile supporters over what amounts to a meaningless vote? Being anti-brexit, or at least having very tight controls to ensure the softest of brexits, is the only approach which protects the less well off in this country. It's hardly a meaningless soundbite like whether or not he's particularly fond of cycle lanes.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:24
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TheRat posted:I dont see why Theresa May would do any of these things, and she is the only one with the power to do so. Arguably Labour could've attempted to scout out tory rebels and force amendments, but let's cut to the chase: The comment from Labour on this was "We unconditionally support the Tory's vision of mad-max england". There was no "We will fight tooth and nail to get these amendments and raise a stink" at any point. It looks a whole lot like total capitulation at best and complicity at worst. I don't feel my views were fought for at all; do you honestly feel remain had any representation of any sort in the past few days? It's been beyond a joke.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:31
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TheRat posted:Remain isnt a thing, and hasnt been a thing since June 23rd 2016. The only thing that needed representation was getting the best possible version of Leave, and even that was a symbolic fight because of the Tories having strict majority. oh right i forgot i stopped existing on the 23rd thank you for your helpful reminder
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Feb 9, 2017 00:36
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ElNarez posted:if you want to blame someone for this, blame Miliband for being a poo poo leader and a poo poo campaigner above all else To be fair he was campaigning on a new-labour "more of the last lot" platform at the time. And to be more fair, people still thought austerity worked. People probably still do and we hit the usual issue of "most the country is made of morons who're really bad at critical thinking and their votes all count the same".
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Feb 9, 2017 00:40
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TheRat posted:You didnt stop existing, you were just in denial. If you think this is a shitshow, what do you think would happen if brexit was called off? People would be beating immigrants and leftwing politicans to death with copies of the daily mail on an hourly basis Sure, which is why we need the counternarrative which means we actually need representation for the other half of the argument. Arguing that leave won so everyone has to live with it is like arguing that the tories won so we don't need an opposition.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:44
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OwlFancier posted:The issue with representing the remain argument is that there isn't anything that anyone other than the tories can do about it, and it won't be relevant by the time it comes to a general election. It makes you the guys who can say "I told you so". TheRat posted:This would only be true if there was a seperate general election on every single part of the tory manifesto. What? No. If there was a referendum on everything there would still be a worthwhile role in the opposition scrutinising, amending and publicising problems with the government's implementation.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:47
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jabby posted:As far as today's vote goes, it is a rhetorical position. Whether Labour voted yes, no or abstain, whipped or free, affects nothing apart from how they are perceived by the country. And now because of this boneheaded move, that has a much better chance of working. Extreme0 posted:
I've said before but fascists are never happy with concessions. We've had governments that "listened to people's views" for years, and it can't be suggested that xenophobia and isolationism has gone down.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:51
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if you don't think this isn't going to happen after Brexit in some form.
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OwlFancier posted:Errghggh not sure about that or that it's entirely desirable even if it was true. I'm not sure "smugly in favor of the status quo" is an election winning formula at the moment. You think there is no advantage to being able to stand up after the sky's caved in on the economy and go "Man, we tried so hard to stop the other lot of guys doing this, but they just ploughed on through even though we tried to warn them! We wanted a load of simple, sensible changes that would've prevented all this, but we couldn't force it through and they wouldn't listen. With your support we'll get on with fixing their mistake"? The argument now is "Well, yes, we were totally with this on every step, and it has gone totally wrong, but, at the time we wanted your votes, so, we put your interests to one side".
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Feb 9, 2017 00:53
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TheRat posted:And are you saying labour isnt doing this with brexit? Because they have been doing exactly this ever since the referendum, you've just chosen to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALA REMAIN I CANT HEAR YOU LALALA" I don't consider overwhelmingly voting in favour of an un-amended bill to be doing any of that, no.
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Feb 9, 2017 00:54
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TheRat posted:This is pissflapsian levels of dishonesty. Where is the voting record of them being against a bill that's going to tank the economy and hit the poorest hardest?
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Feb 9, 2017 00:56
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OwlFancier posted:I think a more appealing position might be "We wanted to give you what you voted for in a way that kept your standard of living as high as possible but the tories don't care and hosed it up for everyone, so vote for us and we'll try to mitiagate the damage." Well, yes, I assumed you'd read the i-told-you-so argument as being more diplomatically phrased than going up to a load of starving homeless, dropping trou and sharting over them. Being against an un-amended bill would've let them make the former (or, either, honestly, but, see above) argument. They can't, now; they voted for it, and either capitulated what's going to have turned out to be a huge fight, or were complicit against the interests of people they say they care about.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:01
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mehall posted:And maybe, just maybe, if Labour aren't being dragged through the loving mud by the press for "opposing the will of the people", he can get back to parking on that. There's a lot that's been hysterically labelled as "loony lefty" stuff, but this isn't one of them. This is a fuckup and it's one Corbyn owns. jabby posted:How would you expect Corbyn to square the circle of voting for a referendum and then voting against it's outcome? Both with the public and with democratic principles? We voted to leave the EU, not to destroy worker's rights and cripple the economy. Also, half the country doesn't want to leave the EU and also deserve representation.
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Feb 9, 2017 01:30
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Paxman posted:I'm not saying it's an evil racist plot though. I'm saying that somewhere in Wikipedia's culture is the idea that being born in a foreign country is a remarkable thing - remarkable enough that it should be highlighted right at the top of an article. The examples you give are of people now based in America who were born in a foreign country which happens to be the UK. Yeah, what's considered an important fact in one place might not be elsewhere. It's relevant to me if someone calls taps faucets, but it probably isn't to an american. forkboy84 posted:As with all things, depends on the individual. Clearly the Brexit vote was a red line for Serious Gaylord. I'd not describe it as such for me, though it was the latest in a long line of events leaving me questioning his continued leadership and whether or not in the medium to long term he's doing the cause of the left more harm than good. This is the big issue, but this is basically the only issue. I'm certainly not actively supporting this shambles and I won't be renewing my membership, though I'm paid out for the year. TinTower posted:Scotland: 62-38 Note also what a mockery these figures make of the "Labour sabotaged the remain campaign" argument; if the tories had this performance we'd be in.
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Feb 9, 2017 14:40
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Bacon Terrorist posted:one thing that struck me after the last election was an intelligent friend shrugging and saying "why would I vote for the party that ran on a policy of 'we'll do austerity but not as well'". Yeah, this was the story of my life last election. Perceptibly there was no difference between Labour and the Tories; they were both pro-austerity, anti-benefits and migration parties, just one looked shuffling and awkward about it. I voted Labour, but I wasn't surprised it wasn't a rallying cry.
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Feb 10, 2017 11:55
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Panama Red posted:Not British so just relying on headlines, but it seems with the poor polling Jezza's days are numbered, and a loss in Stoke and/or Copeland could knock him out. What's so depressing is that if he were to go, there's still going to be this huge gap between the interests of the soapy liberal left in Brighton Pavilion and Bristol West versus the working class voters in the inner cities. Replacing Corbyn with the British equivalent of Hillary Clinton isn't going to unify the party. I'm in Brighton and last time I went to a meeting everyone was really pro-Corbyn. Of course, this was before january.
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Feb 13, 2017 17:13
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Pochoclo posted:Never in my entire life has anyone ever given me one good loving reason why you should love your country. The downs are pretty nice.
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Feb 15, 2017 23:42
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hakimashou posted:Disagreeing about politics is a pretty lousy reason to hate your family. You only get one family, there are millions of people out there you can agree about politics with. Actually if your relatives are poo poo you owe them nothing. Families are people who love each other, if they can't manage that then gently caress them.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:49
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hakimashou posted:There's more to life than agreeing about everything though. Things I disagree with my grandpops about : How it's best to bury people, which planes look cool. Things we agree on: Basic, fundamental rights. If your family don't respect people's rights to exist your family has a problem and you're better off without them, hth
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Feb 16, 2017 01:56
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I mean, this is ultimately the weird apathy view that politics is just some kind of shouting-based sports event that you can just ignore, when actually politics matters and if you have toxic political opinions it's a wee bit more serious than liking The Cubs or whoever the gently caress does sports in America. If you support fascists gently caress no that person is not a loving, safe person.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:58
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hakimashou posted:Is that how it works in britain? The majority of brits, the tories and brexiteers and the people fine with what they do, are all about 'people not having a right to exist.' I mean, brexiters don't want me to have a stable future, and the tories don't want me to be cared for if I get sick again, and on a more visceral level every racist doesn't want my partner to be a foreign asian, and all those people can go gently caress themselves. So, yeah, if my family did strongly think that the NHS wasn't important, or that my girlfriend should be barred from the country, gently caress them. I'd drop them in a microsecond if this was their established position. Granted, I suspect I'd have more leverage off a formerly positive relationship to argue them around, but yes, this Means Stuff. This isn't a loving aesthetic preference.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:11
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hakimashou posted:He did divorce his wife so she couldn't send their kid to a good school though didn't he? I'm almost certain I read about it on here. If your policies aren't good enough for your family, why are they good enough for the rest of the country's? If someone can't be trusted to live by the standards they support while campaigning and would prefer to go for literal nepotism how could they be trusted to run the country? There's a lot more countries that've been run by people who put their family's well being first and you can look to most any history book to see how that shook out. spectralent fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 02:27
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I mean, at best "politician who puts their family first" describes some of the better monarchs, and basically any absolute monarchy is worse than an equivalent with an elected body. Looking to the modern era you get to your Saddams and the Kims, and woah nelly.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:32
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hakimashou posted:It's not wrong for people to want the best for their family. For example, if several people are tied to some train tracks and you only have time to untie one of them, to choose your own brother dad or something instead of a stranger. Which is exactly what education is like, and, while we're at it, a thing that happens all the time and politicians need to be on record for. quote:Its part of treating people as ends in themselves rather than as means to some other end. dynastic politics, of course, being well known for the compassion and valuing of life and happiness that inevitably comes with securing power for your family
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Feb 16, 2017 02:37
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hakimashou posted:Up until the sad events of 2015 I don't think anyone was worried that Jeremy Corbyn was going to start a political dynasty or ever actually amount to anything at all in politics were they? do you just have a compulsion to get your sicknasty Hot Take in whenever you lose arguments or is this like some kind of contractual thing
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Feb 16, 2017 02:46
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hakimashou posted:I learned a long time ago that you don't have to win an argument to be right. Quite.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:50
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I mean, objectively the best person to run a country is going to be the person who's able to appraise and deliver on the needs of a diverse, broad group of people. Someone who's priority is looking after like, three specific people is going to be absolutely poo poo as head of state (or related executive). I feel like that statement was accidentally topical but I just CAN'T WORK OUT HOW. spectralent fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 02:55
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I get the feeling you have no background here so you basically just saw another chance to get some slam-dunks in on the perfidious leftists undermining society, so I''ll help you out: Taking "the good ones" out of comprehensive education stratifies society and leads to growing inequality.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:05
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