What the hell is wrong with Havasu?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Great Outdoors > What the hell is wrong with Havasu?

A Horse Named Mandy: Feb 9, 2007

You've probably seen pictures of Havasu falls. Its shockingly blue waters and stunning red rock canyon make it one of the most picturesque hikes in the world, appearing on countless top ten lists and instagrams.

But this place is a bastard to get permits for. Supposedly, 250 permits are available each day, reservable by calling one of four phone numbers. This is the official word on the NPS website (even though this isn't NPS land, the Tribal website has been down for a while).

There's just one problem: you will not get through.

"AZ Central posted:

On the first day alone, Villiborghi dialed dozens, if not hundreds, of times. Always a busy signal.

By the end of the first day, online travel forums dedicated to Havasupai falls said the permits had been booked solid from peak season all the way up to the first of April, Villiborghi said.

"Over the span of the week, I had 15 hours with the headset next to my head pressing redial,� he said.

The following week, Villiborghi estimates he and his friends attempted calling for another collective five hours. He attempted the line so many times, he began to recognize the different types of ring tones and busy signals he would hear. There was the ring that abruptly cut you off, the one that transitioned into a busy signal, the ring that was solid and one that was more static-filled.

No one in their group ever got through.

This was my exact experience today, calling all four lines for over 5 hours, never getting anything more than a busy signal. The article blames access issues on the increasing popularity of the hike from social media. But this has been an issue for a while.

Here you can find somebody asking about trouble getting a permit from 2010. One of the replies says they had the same issue 10 years before that, meaning this has been a problem since at least 2000. Each time it's the same details: can't get through, and when you do, everything is booked full.

Yet, despite claims of selling out every day, I've seen stories of the camp being largely empty at times, or at least still accessible to walk-ins.

"Bearfoot Theory posted:

Despite being told that the campground was full, when I was there in March, I would estimate that over half the sites were empty, and the crowds seemed thinner the further we walked.

"Random Guy posted:

When I finally spoke to someone, they said they were "full", which made no sense at all. I was told that we could "take a chance" and hike down and see if there was any room. As it turns out, the place was dead empty, I mean the entire campground completely empty.

Another time I went in April (an extremely busy month), and like good scouts we made reservations far in advance. When we arrived we saw tons of walk-ins getting permits and packing into the already overflowing campground.

On top of this, there are separate rates. A reservation will cost you over a hundred dollars per person for two nights, but a walk-in will be double.

So what's the deal? Is the tribal infrastructure just that bad? Is this some sort of racket? Do they not really care as long as the money is good? Whatever the reason, I'll probably never get to go.

# ? Feb 2, 2017 04:56

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 13:55

Syncopated: Oct 21, 2010

lol at calling continuosly for aweek. Take a hint.

# ? Feb 2, 2017 10:56

extra stout: Feb 24, 2005; ISILDUR's ERR

Syncopated posted:

lol at calling continuosly for aweek. Take a hint.

This guy is part of the conspiracy for sure

# ? Feb 2, 2017 17:56

SulfurMonoxideCute: Feb 9, 2008; I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

Don't worry, within the next few years it will be dug up for some sort of natural resource or polluted to green sludge and you'll never have to worry about it ever again.

# ? Feb 4, 2017 02:04

A Horse Named Mandy: Feb 9, 2007

I'd be pretty understanding if the native population just wanted all the tourists to gently caress off at this point, but knowing the economic situation of most tribes, they're likely begrudgingly dependent on tourist dollars and unable to maintain the necessary resources to support demand.

"Trip Advisor posted:

�Overpriced and shady place, but only option you have!�
2 stars

This was our only option for a place to stay while visiting in late December. We did actually see some people camping, but I'm not that adventurous in the Winter. I called them for weeks before I got anyone on the phone. They don't answer the phone often. You have to call a lot! I found 9am Eastern Time to be the best. We paid $400 for two nights (includes tax and permit) to say here. Upon arrival the place didn't look to bad. It is the nicest place in the village! However, the door had obviously been kicked in. The latch lock was broken and the front window did not even close. I was a little concerned about our safety! My boyfriend made fun of me because I had him push the love seat against the door while we slept and I put my money, phone and camera in a hidden spot. I had read people get robbed here and there is nothing that they could do about it. The permit required you to sign an agreement that you realize you have no medical or police help for any reason. You ARE ON YOUR OWN! Bring a weapon of some sort. It was an uneasy feelings being in such a remote location without any safety. However, it is the most amazing place in the US, so it is still worth it! Also, it rained while we were there and they lost power. We did not have heat or running water. I never got to shower - NO HOT WATER, EVER. You will not be getting a hot shower and there is not any coffee in the room. There was wifi the first day, but after it rained and they lost power, we never say the power come back on. Make sure you come prepared. You want to bring food and survival stuff. This village is the most remote village in the US. They do not follow US rules, it is their land and their reservation. They make their own rules. You can get coffee and food at the one restaurant. It is pricey. Coffee is $4 for med and $5 for a large I think. I'd pay whatever, but I'm just letting you know stuff is not inexpensive anywhere. The restaurant and grocery close at 5. If you are traveling during the Winter, bring something to do after dark. There is nothing to do and we didn't want to go out after dark. No alcohol on the reservation, we were missing some craft beer for sure! haha.

Room Tip: Ask for a room with windows that close and a door that hasn't been kicked in.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 09:01

The XKCD Larper: Mar 1, 2009; by Lowtax

You could always go to Lake Havasu City OP. It's about the same.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 19:05

Jenny Agutter: Mar 18, 2009

The tribe just doesn't have the resources to deal with the demand. It's a tiny village that's obviously very remote. I can't really blame them for not wanting to deal with screaming mostly overprivileged white people on phones 24 hours a day. Especially considering how much they've been dicked around with by outsiders (see: supai tribe vs ASU, current lawsuit against the federal government over awful educational system) From what I've heard from people who have been it's absolutely worth it if you can go though.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 20:01

A Horse Named Mandy: Feb 9, 2007

Interesting update: the tribe's reservation website is back, except A: it's a different web address. B: they never told anybody about it, but C: everything was still booked up in a day and D: they continue to get slammed, so have shut down the reservation portion of the website. Maybe next year, but after making easily over a thousand calls over the course of a week and never hearing anything other than a dial tone, it's an discouraging note to end on.

Hearing stories of how easy it used to be to make reservations for even the most popular trails, assuming they were even needed, it makes me wonder if outdoor recreation is really going through a surge this generation, or if the nature of the hobby has fundamentally changed at this point.

A Horse Named Mandy fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Feb 9, 2017

# ? Feb 9, 2017 22:07

Levitate: Sep 30, 2005; randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENI�RE IN ME

A Horse Named Mandy posted:

Interesting update: the tribe's reservation website is back, except A: it's a different web address. B: they never told anybody about it, but C: everything was still booked up in a day and D: they continue to get slammed, so have shut down the reservation portion of the website. Maybe next year, but after making easily over a thousand calls over the course of a week and never hearing anything other than a dial tone, it's an discouraging note to end on.

Hearing stories of how easy it used to be to make reservations for even the most popular trails, assuming they were even needed, it makes me wonder if outdoor recreation is really going through a surge this generation, or if the nature of the hobby has fundamentally changed at this point.

I wonder about that too, I don't really know for sure. There was a huge jump in popularity of the JMT right around 2012 I think. Some people blame it on books like Wild and the JMT documentary that went on around that time, etc, but I don't know how much of it is a temporary surge and how much of it is going to stay that way. That it was such a huge jump all at once would seem to indicate a non sustainable surge but I don't really know...you'd expect the number of people backpacking to increase in general as the population increases but it certainly shouldn't jump that fast.

I think there is an increase in endurance sport type activity that is spilling over into backpacking and traditional trails like the JMT and PCT. There's a lot of competition to do it the fastest or stuff like that which is driving at least some traffic. The internet and ease of sharing information also makes a huge difference and probably is a fundamental shift right there...used to be you had maybe some maps, word of mouth, and a few books if you could find them to plan a trip and maybe a friend who showed you some awesome pictures. Now you've got GPS tracks that show exactly how to get to anywhere complete with professional photographs of everything. Makes it super easy to plan stuff and there's a bunch of people always looking for the next awesome must see place to go.

Ultimately I dunno, I had the best vacation of my life hiking the JMT in 2014 but I almost feel like I'd have a hard time recommending it to someone now as it's pretty drat crowded. I hiked a few miles of it last summer as part of a different cross country trip and there seemed to be more people than a few years ago. Deviate just a bit from it though and you'll find hardly anyone.

# ? Feb 9, 2017 23:29

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

The surge in popularity is absolutely due to social media bullshit and not about people actually wanting to enjoy the great outdoors. I will direct you to my recorded observations from BC in September:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNGdFBviu00

Nobody was there to hike, they were there to take their loving yoga pose on this log and gently caress back off to Vancouver.

loving yuppies.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:31

Levitate: Sep 30, 2005; randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENI�RE IN ME

Haha I mean yes those people are part of it but I don't think i'd lump in the people who legitimately do the PCT with the yoga pose people.

I do think its become a "so cool you gotta do this" kind of thing plus there's some commercialization of the big trails now (people getting sponsored by gear companies, etc)

# ? Feb 10, 2017 05:29

A Horse Named Mandy: Feb 9, 2007

I haven't seen much of the Santiago de Camino on social media (at least not in the US), and there's no way the increased popularity is from a mediocre Martin Sheen movie from 2010, but it seems to be spiraling out of control.

code:

Year	Pilgrims
2016	277,915
2015	262,458
2014	237,886
2013	215,880
2012	192,488
2011	179,919
2010	272,703*
2009	145,877
2008	125,141
2007	114,026
2006	100,377
2005	93,924
2004	179,944*
2003	74,614
2002	68,952
2001	61,418
2000	55,004#
1999	154,613*
1998	30,126
1997	25,179
1996	23,218
1995	19,821
1994	15,863
1993	99,436*
1992	9,764
1991	7,274
1990	4,918
1989	5,760
1988	3,501
1987	2,905
1986	1,801
1985	690
* Holy Years (Xacobeo/Jacobeo)
# Santiago named European Capital of Culture

Knowing this trail relies more on towns than tents, I was wondering if infrastructure could keep up and... welp!

"Just how popular is El Camino de Santiago? posted:

I rarely stayed in the albergues (huts) because I prefer to sleep outside than pay $5 to sleep with a bunch of people who snore and make a racket going to bed late. However, with just 5 km before Santiago, I celebrated by staying at the albergue. When I signed in, I asked the lady, "Is it a busy night tonight?"

"No, only 30 pilgrims are staying here."

"What's the maximum capacity?"

"550."

550?! It looked huge from the outside, but since I arrived at night, I couldn't tell just how enormous this albergue was. There's a series of buildings to house pilgrims. Incredibly, during the summer they're overflowing in capacity.

Pilgrims walking on of El Camino many paved, but deserted, roads. The surrounding farmland is nice to look at for a few days, but then gets boring.Click to expand and see caption
To be fair, most albergues are far smaller, hosting fewer than 100 pilgrims. Still, one hundred is a lot!

When I received my Compostela (the certificate of completion) in Santiago, I asked one of the four volunteers what's the maximum pilgrims the office processed in one day. The answer blew me away: "On one day in August 2009, we processed 1,500 pilgrims."

My mouth dropped. The line was down the stairs and wound around the streets outside. Pilgrims waited for hours to get their piece of paper.

I told the man, "But 2010 is a Holy Compostellan Year (because July 25 falls on a Sunday). You'll surely break the record then, right?"

"Unless we get more volunteers," he said, "There's no way we can process more than 1,500 per day. We worked overtime to do 1,500. It was crazy!"

It's hard to grasp these numbers, but here's one last attempt. When I yo-yoed the CDT, I didn't find one backpacker during the first 3,000 km of trail. Not one. (I saw just one day hiker, two snowmobilers, and two skiers.) Although I saw a few more backpackers during the last 6,000 km, each year fewer than 100 backpackers finish the CDT. On a summer day on El Camino, it's common that 100 pilgrims finish per hour!

Every year, more than 300,000 pilgrims earn a compostela (which means they walked at least 100 km). They come from over 100 countries. The volume of pilgrims is simply staggering.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 08:44

Levitate: Sep 30, 2005; randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENI�RE IN ME

eh the CDT is a weird "trail" at this point and not a popular one in the US yet. I don't think the entire thing is even quite connected as one big trail yet.I'm sure when the PCT gets played out people will move on to the CDT though

Maybe it's just more people with more leisure time at this point in history.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 19:25

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

i think it's cool that so many people are enjoying the outdoors. sure the social media types are annoying but that's the case with everything. I would say that this outdoors trend doesn't seemed to have reached british young people yet, when i'm walking it seems to be mostly older brits and younger eastern europeans.

# ? Feb 11, 2017 18:18

Levitate: Sep 30, 2005; randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENI�RE IN ME

pointsofdata posted:

i think it's cool that so many people are enjoying the outdoors. sure the social media types are annoying but that's the case with everything. I would say that this outdoors trend doesn't seemed to have reached british young people yet, when i'm walking it seems to be mostly older brits and younger eastern europeans.

I think my only complaint is that it seems mainly to be targeting specific popular places and trails and are overburdening them to some extent, but that's what happens to popular places I guess.

# ? Feb 11, 2017 18:55

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

Levitate posted:

I think my only complaint is that it seems mainly to be targeting specific popular places and trails and are overburdening them to some extent, but that's what happens to popular places I guess.

I think to a certain extent popular areas are just going to have to deal with it. Better infrastructure might be unpopular with some people but it can really help busy areas cope better. Opening up new alternative public rights of way could help too!

# ? Feb 12, 2017 13:05

George H.W. Cunt: Oct 6, 2010

I'm starting the Appalachian Trail thru hike in a few weeks and I'm dreading the amount of people I'll come across constantly. Even if I had done it right after college in 2009 it would have been a much different experience I feel. Ah well should be fun and while a ton start the AT, 75% still quit so I imagine it'll empty out pretty quick.

# ? Feb 19, 2017 09:11

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

LNT needs to be updated to include not identifying locations in photos you post and sure as hell not posting maps or GPS tracks.

# ? Apr 8, 2017 22:49

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Half the people are only out there to get their lovely social media likes, so that ain't happening.

The days of blank spots on the map are over, unless it's longer than a days trek from any road.

# ? Apr 9, 2017 04:11

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

There are plenty of dayhikes that haven't been discovered by the Instagram crowds. There are spots in the I-90 corridor near Seattle you can go on a sunny summer weekend and see one or two other people on trail while the popular trailheads have cars parked a mile down the road. It may be easier than ever to research potential hikes but that doesn't mean people will actually bother when they can go to whatever they see pictures of in the massive local hiking Facebook group. Part of keeping some wilderness wild is not advertising the places that haven't been swarmed.

# ? Apr 10, 2017 02:30

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 13:55

Epitope: Nov 27, 2006; Grimey Drawer

These glamorized iconic places are like porn stars, where you pay a bunch to stand behind a rail with the others, look but don't touch. The backcountry rec crowd is all about finding the best lovers, the land for caressing with a sensuous touch of toe or ski or paddle. The old well to dos want to buy a piece, to have a gimp for whenever they feel the need, but all they end up doing is talking at her or showing her off to dinner guests, leaving fence hopping renegades as her only source of intimacy. Don't count out the girl next door, the little patches of green, not only an emergency loo for joggers, but potentially passionate life long friends.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 01:55

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