How do you think the forums rewrite is going?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > How do you think the forums rewrite is going?

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Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

you do not want to know what goes into web-facing mumps, let me tell you.

i do now

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:11

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 14:02

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

try sanitizing inputs when this is your only method for parsing strings: http://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GCOS_operators#GCOS_operators_pattern

note that only the "?" operator is in the ANSI standard so the other methods they mention can't be used if you want your code to be portable. i have seen a pattern that fills 3 screens that attempts to detect whether the input is executable mumps code.

and you have to do this validation in mumps, obviously, because you can't trust client validation wasn't hosed with.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:25

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

MUMPS is killing US veterans and this article is aiding and abetting!![edit]
Goddamnit, this article is written POV, probably by some clowns who know only MUMPS and are desparately afraid that their stinking, rotten, filthy little jobs, delaying care to military veterans with their goddamn outdated technology, might be lost. Men and women are returning burned and blasted to poo poo and sit and rot in hallways for "paperwork" to catch up with them.

Where does this paperwork come from? Why is it late?

This article DOES make it clear where it comes from and why it is late. A bunch of contemptible little programmers who care only about their cozy comfortable jobs actually believe the ABSURD claims in this article.

I've removed one such claim: it was logically contradictory, and the person, probably a MUMPS hotshot, who posted it didn't see the logical contradiction because he or she is STUPID. It literally claimed that "structured programming" reduces development time AND that it makes programs difficult to debug.

Hey, Ace. Hey Hot Dog, what the HELL do you think you're claiming?! That you're done developing when you stop typing the code?

My uncle, a personal physician of Lyndon Johnson, is probably DEAD because of MUMPS. He died alone in a military hospital at the age of 78 because Job One in an organization with dysfunctional-dogshit computer systems is the fascinating "intellectual challenge" that paperwork presents, which health "care" bureaucrats seem today to prefer to looking after men and women who've served their country.

As I have posted, last month the OIG of the Veterans Administration has reported serious problems of the type that emerge from clownish data systems celebrated by buffoons for their wonderful GoTo statements, their fascinating limits on string length, and overall, their replacement of transparency by an opacity, that allows data processing bureaucrats, most of whom with serious addictions, usually to food, to sit on their fat asses "thinking" about stupid things.

The article violates wikipedia NPOV and it needs to be rewritten from top to bottom. NPOV is NOT NOT NOT agreement with the local boys who colonize an article. MUMPS is a dysfunctional system: this is FACT.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:40

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

akadajet posted:

MUMPS is killing US veterans and this article is aiding and abetting!![edit]
Goddamnit, this article is written POV, probably by some clowns who know only MUMPS and are desparately afraid that their stinking, rotten, filthy little jobs, delaying care to military veterans with their goddamn outdated technology, might be lost. Men and women are returning burned and blasted to poo poo and sit and rot in hallways for "paperwork" to catch up with them.

Where does this paperwork come from? Why is it late?

This article DOES make it clear where it comes from and why it is late. A bunch of contemptible little programmers who care only about their cozy comfortable jobs actually believe the ABSURD claims in this article.

I've removed one such claim: it was logically contradictory, and the person, probably a MUMPS hotshot, who posted it didn't see the logical contradiction because he or she is STUPID. It literally claimed that "structured programming" reduces development time AND that it makes programs difficult to debug.

Hey, Ace. Hey Hot Dog, what the HELL do you think you're claiming?! That you're done developing when you stop typing the code?

My uncle, a personal physician of Lyndon Johnson, is probably DEAD because of MUMPS. He died alone in a military hospital at the age of 78 because Job One in an organization with dysfunctional-dogshit computer systems is the fascinating "intellectual challenge" that paperwork presents, which health "care" bureaucrats seem today to prefer to looking after men and women who've served their country.

As I have posted, last month the OIG of the Veterans Administration has reported serious problems of the type that emerge from clownish data systems celebrated by buffoons for their wonderful GoTo statements, their fascinating limits on string length, and overall, their replacement of transparency by an opacity, that allows data processing bureaucrats, most of whom with serious addictions, usually to food, to sit on their fat asses "thinking" about stupid things.

The article violates wikipedia NPOV and it needs to be rewritten from top to bottom. NPOV is NOT NOT NOT agreement with the local boys who colonize an article. MUMPS is a dysfunctional system: this is FACT.

lol, where is this from? the VA's emr is called VISTA and is written in MUMPS. you are legally entitled to download your own copy of its source code. it's terrible. we bid for the VA's new scheduling system and got it but it hasn't been rolled out yet. but thanks to that one dailyWTF article or whatever people all think mumps is the name of the actual medical software rather than a language some terrible software is implemented in.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:45

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

lol, where is this from?

the wikipedia talk page on mumps

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:47

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

akadajet posted:

the wikipedia talk page on mumps

lmbo

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:49

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

lol, where is this from? the VA's emr is called VISTA and is written in MUMPS. you are legally entitled to download your own copy of its source code. it's terrible. we bid for the VA's new scheduling system and got it but it hasn't been rolled out yet. but thanks to that one dailyWTF article or whatever people all think mumps is the name of the actual medical software rather than a language some terrible software is implemented in.

ok the system is terrible but how would you compare it to other MUMPS-based systems

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:49

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Gazpacho posted:

ok the system is terrible but how would you compare it to other MUMPS-based systems

well, the products i know of that use MUMPS are these, ordered from least bad to most bad

epic
cerner millenium
meditech (an even crazier dialect of MUMPS called MAGIC)
intersystems' bespoke system whose name changes every 6 months
pretty sure 3m's emr that they're killing runs on mumps
VISTA
crazy in-house developed poo poo running on hospital mainframes from the 60s.

most of these products are bad, but none of them are dangerously bad the way VISTA is. ive supported all of them in the past and most of the badness in the others is outdated ui paradigms, obtuse workflows, etc. VISTA straight up kills people. last i checked it barely attempts to look for medication interactions, its scheduling is basically just a FIFO queue, etc.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 21:59

George: Nov 27, 2004; No love for your made-up things.

a good programmer can write elegant, easy-to-read code in any language

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:20

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

George posted:

a good programmer can write elegant, easy-to-read code in any language

quote:

Mumps syntax will be discussed in detail below but it is important at this time to point out that Mumps code may not contain embedded blanks except withing quoted strings. In Mumps, a blank is a delimiter.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:22

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Gazpacho posted:

what does this mean? whitespace is syntactic in mumps. single spaces separate statements, double spaces or newlines separate expressions. so you can't just have random extra whitespaces between identifiers or something, but if he's just complaining that he can't write something like "func( arg 1 , arg 2, arg 3)" i don't know what he's on about.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:26

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

what does this mean? whitespace is syntactic in mumps. single spaces separate statements, double spaces or newlines separate expressions. so you can't just have random extra whitespaces between identifiers or something, but if he's just complaining that he can't write something like "func( arg 1 , arg 2, arg 3)" i don't know what he's on about.

to clarify the difference between single and double spaces

code:

; this is a vanilla for loop. there's a single space between the for because the control statement 
; is an argument to the for expression and the do is its second argument indicating to 
; execute the nested scope defined by the "."-prefixed lines as the loop body
for i=1:1:10 do
. w "On Iteration "_i

; this is a for loop iterating over subscripts of a b-tree. there's a double space between the for and the set
; because the set is its own expression and the assignment statement sub=$o(...) is the argument to set.
; for loops execute everything on the line they're on until a quit condition is hit.
for  set sub=$o(btree(sub)) quit:sub="" do
. w "Looking at subscript "_sub

it's like that because the first mumps interpreter was extremely primitive (it was running in native assembly on a 60s mainframe, remember) so using spaces to define certain syntactical units makes the parsing much easier. yeah, it's different from most modern languages, but i don't think that's inherently bad.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:33

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

what does this mean? whitespace is syntactic in mumps. single spaces separate statements, double spaces or newlines separate expressions. so you can't just have random extra whitespaces between identifiers or something, but if he's just complaining that he can't write something like "func( arg 1 , arg 2, arg 3)" i don't know what he's on about.

lol you're gone

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:36

Hammerite: Mar 9, 2007; And you don't remember what I said here, either, but it was pompous and stupid.; Jade Ear Joe

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

what does this mean? whitespace is syntactic in mumps. single spaces separate statements, double spaces or newlines separate expressions.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:36

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Gazpacho posted:

lol you're gone

is it any worse than python having syntactic indentation? it's a weird design choice but also understandable given the origins of the language and it certainly doesn't force you to write bad code.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:39

Hammerite: Mar 9, 2007; And you don't remember what I said here, either, but it was pompous and stupid.; Jade Ear Joe

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

is it any worse than python having syntactic indentation? it's a weird design choice but also understandable given the origins of the language and it certainly doesn't force you to write bad code.

newlines terminating a statement, and indentation showing the structure of code, is much more natural than making the difference between a single space and two spaces in a row significant. indentation shapes the code in a way that's easy to appreciate, minor variations in spacing within a line of code aren't a natural thing for the eye to look for. it's the difference between helping the reader out and laying traps for them

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:42

qntm: Jun 17, 2009

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

i have seen a pattern that fills 3 screens that attempts to detect whether the input is executable mumps code

whyyyy would you ever want to detect this

I know the answer will be bad

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:47

Cat Face Joe: Feb 20, 2005; goth vegan crossfit mom who vapes

qntm posted:

I would love to peek at the codebase, I like a challenge

according to those who've seen it, its a challenge in a jigsawesque "nail gun ur nuts to this wood block and drag it to the pressure sensor to release the door but then room fills with bees" way

# ? Feb 6, 2017 22:57

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

qntm posted:

whyyyy would you ever want to detect this

I know the answer will be bad

to prevent code injection attacks. same reason you'd want to detect javascript or sql in your inputs, except the only kind of code a mumps server can execute is mumps so that's all you need to sanitize for on the server side. mumps has two equivalents of eval() and obviously you need to confirm your input isn't malicious before you use those.

# ? Feb 6, 2017 23:03

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

is it any worse than python having syntactic indentation? it's a weird design choice but also understandable given the origins of the language and it certainly doesn't force you to write bad code.

yes because with python any half decent editor can reformat your code automatically to sort out any syntactic indentation confusion or errors, whereas in MUMPS this would probably break your code in a million different ways

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:17

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

vodkat posted:

yes because with python any half decent editor can reformat your code automatically to sort out any syntactic indentation confusion or errors, whereas in MUMPS this would probably break your code in a million different ways

there are two actively maintained mumps ides that will fix your syntax for you. and, like i said, it's a design decision driven by the needs of a 1960s mainframe. remember that it was revolutionary that c had a compiler that could self-host. mumps was written in pdp-7 assembly.

im literally not trying to argue it's the best or even a good way to do things. just that it doesn't force you to write terrible code and most of the things people blame on mumps are really bad developers and lazy vendors.

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:19

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

I'll rewrite the forums

first order of business: putting the forums on the block chain

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:20

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

My Linux Rig posted:

I'll rewrite the forums

first order of business: putting the forums on the block chain

replace toxx clauses with smart contracts

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:26

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

My Linux Rig posted:

I'll rewrite the forums

first order of business: putting the forums on the block chain

can I cash in my dead beef's for new av?

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:27

Endless Mike: Aug 13, 2003

vodkat posted:

beef's

mooooooooods

# ? Feb 7, 2017 01:41

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

always found elixir a bit puzzling since while the erlang syntax is slightly esoteric it is not esoteric in any way that makes it more difficult to work with. you'll have to learn a new language anyway, ending function declarations with a period will not in fact be the biggest thing you'll have to get used to

lisp flavored erlang superiority

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:15

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

If you're doing a web thing and you aren't using asp.net you're nuts.

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:24

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

people all think mumps is the name of the actual medical software rather than a language some terrible software is implemented in.

it's a terrible language that terrible software is implemented in

like, it postdates structured programming, but eschews it

that's p terrible

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:27

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

there are two actively maintained mumps ides that will fix your syntax for you. and, like i said, it's a design decision driven by the needs of a 1960s mainframe. remember that it was revolutionary that c had a compiler that could self-host. mumps was written in pdp-7 assembly.

im literally not trying to argue it's the best or even a good way to do things. just that it doesn't force you to write terrible code and most of the things people blame on mumps are really bad developers and lazy vendors.

by your own explanation about whitespace, MUMPS p much does apparently require you to write terrible code, because otherwise it'll gently caress up

the 60s had Algol and PL/I and BLISS and BCPL and even loving MacLisp (not just toy Lisp 1.5, but full-featured can-do-real-world-poo poo MacLisp); C self-hosting wasn't a big deal to the people who had experience with languages like those because they were self-hosting too

MUMPS exists because some special snowflake wanted to reinvent the wheel as part of developing an EMR system, probably because they thought it'd be more fun that way than just implementing a regular data processing system

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:40

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

at the time MUMPS was created (1966) "structured programming" was barely a subject of discussion in academic journals and certainly not adopted by any industry players

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:47

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

try sanitizing inputs when this is your only method for parsing strings: http://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GCOS_operators#GCOS_operators_pattern

note that only the "?" operator is in the ANSI standard so the other methods they mention can't be used if you want your code to be portable. i have seen a pattern that fills 3 screens that attempts to detect whether the input is executable mumps code.

and you have to do this validation in mumps, obviously, because you can't trust client validation wasn't hosed with.

no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:55

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

I typed all of those no's individually

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:57

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

?1"no"16" no" would have saved you typing

# ? Feb 7, 2017 06:59

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Gazpacho posted:

at the time MUMPS was created (1966) "structured programming" was barely a subject of discussion in academic journals and certainly not adopted by any industry players

mumps was bad even by 1966 standards

structured programming, as we know it, came out of the late-50s algol efforts. it was most definitely a topic of academic discussion. maybe you should search for "algol" instead of "structured programming"

fortran IV, an actual sane programming language, was sold as a commercial product in 1961. it wasn't algol, but it was algol-like, and usable by most programmers with minimal training.

in summary, this is a lame defense and you are lame for posing it.

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:02

Asymmetric POSTer: Aug 17, 2005

Shaggar posted:

If you're doing a web thing and you aren't using asp.net you're nuts.

which of the top 100 most visited websites run on asp.net?

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:10

poty: Jun 21, 2008; 虹はどこで終わるのですか？あなたの魂の中で、または地平線で?

akadajet posted:

hmm maybe i was wrong and the elixir rewrite is a good idea after all

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:10

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

counterpoint:

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:11

poty: Jun 21, 2008; 虹はどこで終わるのですか？あなたの魂の中で、または地平線で?

Sweevo posted:

we scared chef fatwood back to snack overflow because nobody liked his six course idea

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:13

George: Nov 27, 2004; No love for your made-up things.

its clear that we all agree a brand new language will be required to code something as forward-thinking and revolutionary as this forums upgrade

before we get started i'de like to open the floor to discussion about what kind of license we'll be releasing the compiler and native programming environment under

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:14

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 14:02

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

i love my dead gay vbulletin

# ? Feb 7, 2017 07:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > How do you think the forums rewrite is going?

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