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Splode posted:I think the entente were ahead until the last update. Pretty even now. Both sides have struggled as teams this round. My dad was an excellent corps commander last game, but I wonder if his suggestions now are eating away at the actual corps commander's authority and confidence. Cool, that makes sense. Suppose the lesson from this round is focused chain of command to take into whatever the next campaign is.
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Apr 6, 2017 06:55
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I still don't understand the movement rules while on defence. There's the "if anyone moves, everyone must move" rule (which I can't actually find in the movement rules) and also the "you must use all your movement allowance" rule. Both make sense to me for attacking, as they significantly reduce bookkeeping. By making sure that companies must attack as a group, you're making it easier to adjudicate because otherwise people would come up with ridiculously complex leapfrogging maneuvres etc. But none of the rules make sense to me for defending. I mean - I would expect defending commanders to be able to shuffle units around in the trenches. "I need that machine gun up there! Move it, everyone else stay put!" Or - "People in the first trench withdraw, people in the second trench stay in place." It seems reasonable that commanders should be able to do that. Right now, the British need to reshuffle their defence and are coming up with complicated plans to make sure that everybody moves just for the sake of moving. It's counterintuitive and counterproductive as well because it's actually making adjudication more complicated. See:  (EDIT: I would suggest a rule like: "While on defence, you can shuffle your chits around as long as you're not conquering new territory.) markus_cz fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 10:12
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Looks like that good engagement with 20th Brigade brought some wind back in the Germans' sails. Jaguars! is planning an offensive, however limited it may be. The planning for it is quite thorough, I have to say.
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Apr 6, 2017 12:38
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markus_cz posted:I still don't understand the movement rules while on defence. There's the "if anyone moves, everyone must move" rule (which I can't actually find in the movement rules) and also the "you must use all your movement allowance" rule. Both make sense to me for attacking, as they significantly reduce bookkeeping. By making sure that companies must attack as a group, you're making it easier to adjudicate because otherwise people would come up with ridiculously complex leapfrogging maneuvres etc. Two principles: 1). Allowing brigades to fine-tune their positions destroys the advantage of attacking them from an unusual direction, because then they'll just shuffle around and face you before you can get near them. There are two ways to prevent this and neither of them are entirely satisfactory. The rulebook gives all units a 45-degree arc of fire and doesn't allow them to open fire on enemies coming at them from outside the arc; but very early playtesting showed that it was a gigantic pain in the arse, almost impossible to keep track of, or display clearly so the players could see what's going on. The solution is to allow companies 360-degree firing, but to make it very difficult to move them about in response to attacks; then you get at least some of the effect of the arc of fire because some companies will be out of range and others will have their LOS obstructed, while the enemy can bring all their firepower to bear at once in the style of a battleship crossing the T. Mistakes should not be able to be easily corrected; this is not the war for easily correcting your mistakes. 2). Brigade commanders are one level too high to be fine-tuning deployments, particularly when it would involve running around between various field command positions to give critiques; that's a battalion commander's job, and we don't have those. It's the sort of thing you'd have to do over a period of about 72 hours and when there wasn't a major battle going on at the time; tour the trenches at leisure, talk to the men on the spot, return to HQ, digest the situation with staff; then and only then would the sensible brigade commander make recommendations for improvement. Once the battle is on, the positions you have are the ones you're stuck with and you simply don't have the command capabilities to adjust them on the fly. Again, this is not the war for easily correcting your mistakes.
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Apr 6, 2017 14:45
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wedgekree posted:Who folks think has the general advantage in the present, at least so far as general orders/intent and positioning on the field and casualties taken so far? The Brits were ahead until the last update I think. The Germans lost a brigade or two early on to some questionable decisions and terrible luck, while the Brits lost one in a pointless charge in the FdE, and now this second one in an attempted move on La Dand. Unfortunately for them I think the plan would have worked perfectly for them if it had been executed one turn earlier; that German brigade hadn't come south yet, and the Germans still had cut wires all over the place that were preventing them from changing orders effectively. If they had gotten back to La Dand, they could have kept them cut permanently, and it might have been a real worrisome position for the Germans. But such is the benefit of omniscience and hindsight. As for right now, they're about equal, and both teams clearly have a mind set of settling into the established lines rather than trying to break through somewhere. It remains to be seen how each side will use their fresh divisions however. Those might shake things up a lot depending on where they get deployed, though I suspect they'll each use them to shore up their existing positions, and Trin will call the round.
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Apr 6, 2017 17:32
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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This has probably been the best turn for the Germans in a while. That southern trench along the river is free again to take up again, so they don't need to give so much ground with their southern defensive line, and that dead British expedition to Le Dand is all the less British to defend against. Those plans the British were laying out for where to set up in Le Dand reminded me of all those German plans to set up at the western edge of Effyaders. I feel like the northernmost German unit is in a great position for...something, but I can't for the life of me think of what. They've missed their chance to easily take out the artillery, though they can still try if they're so bold. Maybe they could circle round and attack the British from behind while they send another unit to attack from the front? But they really don't have the men to risk that sort of move, or the positioning to really make that work well. As it is, they're just keeping their heads down and getting slowly shelled into oblivion. I don't see much of anything for the British to do now, they've got a pretty good defensive position, and they don't have enough men to keep their defensive line intact while making any offensive moves. All they can really do is plug holes and hope the Germans crash against them. And what's that goober doing on the northern road just chilling next to a corpse, far away from any officer to rush him back to the front?
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Apr 6, 2017 17:42
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Thanks for the explanation. I see the logic behind that. But still... the Brits seem to be bypassing your intentions and are actually shifting their men around. In an overcomplicated fashion – they're keeping everyone moving and changing places, even though the end deployment is almost the same, just with chits now occupying each other's spots. However it does get the job done and bypasses the limits. What I'm saying, I guess, is that I'm not challenging your intentions, I'm challenging the rules which don't seem to do a good job of achieving those intentions, and seem to be confusing for the players too. Or am I missing something? Would a rule like this work? "Brigades on defend can shuffle their chits, but only when the brigade isn't spotting an enemy or under fire." This wouldn't prevent you from being flanked. Basically, I'm just suggesting a simplification. The players can still move around, they just have to switch to attack stance and then make sure to move every single chit their full move allowance, then switch back to defend. It achieves the exact same thing in more steps.
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Apr 6, 2017 17:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:This has probably been the best turn for the Germans in a while. That southern trench along the river is free again to take up again, so they don't need to give so much ground with their southern defensive line, and that dead British expedition to Le Dand is all the less British to defend against. Those plans the British were laying out for where to set up in Le Dand reminded me of all those German plans to set up at the western edge of Effyaders. I'm not sure about the sight ranges, but I would find it terribly funny if the Germans decided to send that brigade on a reverse La Dand trip. Do the British have phones on this side of the final river? Because if their phone endpoint is Effyaders, then the Germans just need to cut one road in order to sever the phone link. And from there the brigade would be home free (except not at all).
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Apr 6, 2017 17:56
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SlothfulCobra posted:This has probably been the best turn for the Germans in a while. That southern trench along the river is free again to take up again, so they don't need to give so much ground with their southern defensive line Also: The Germans managed to work out the British Positions pretty well, except fpor one "Phantom"-Brigade... which they decide to attack  Also, not giving counter-Arty Missions Priority is going to bite them, hard.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:53
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Yeah I'm surprised they aren't putting counter-battery at the top of the list, especially since Sniper is so worried about it.
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Apr 6, 2017 19:20
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Do you think the bicycle men will be assigned to sensible rapid-response reinforcement roles, or will they be ordered on a 'cunning' charge into enemy positions?
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Apr 7, 2017 00:16
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lenoon posted:ooooooooohhhhhhh lenoon posted:Abort Retry Fail if you agree with Slim then you'd better order me quick because otherwise I am going to listen to and politely ignore his very sensible and completely correct advice in order to pursue unquestioned artillery dominance. Now this I like.
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Apr 7, 2017 18:59
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PittTheElder posted:Now this I like. Oh wow. That's some seriously precise guessing.
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Apr 7, 2017 20:06
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drat, yeah it is. I thought they had actually seen the guns firing at some point, but I don't see it in any of Trin's updates. Those guns aren't entrenched either, something tells me they're going to have a bad time.
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Apr 7, 2017 20:26
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Lenoon apparently now second-guessing himself:lenoon posted:I'm second guessing myself right now. I should have gone further north, what the hell am I doing! Four by four in a square at the top would have been way better and probably would have caught some infantry. They'd be dumb as gently caress to deploy in a line that far south, we'd be able to see the fuckers if they were there from the corner trenches! And the forest would gently caress with their LOS so no ones going to sit that close to the loving edge! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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Apr 7, 2017 21:22
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Oh you jerk, if you're going to second-guess your amazing perfect stellar immaculate guess, you could at least do it in time to change your orders. Also it looks like the Germans are planning to attack the central trenches (but not charge and attempt to occupy them?) while the British are planning to vacate them. Amazing.
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Apr 7, 2017 21:31
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So the Germans are finally starting to figure out that the secret is concentrating your force. Shame they're about to lose half their guns.
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Apr 7, 2017 22:49
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SlothfulCobra posted:Also it looks like the Germans are planning to attack the central trenches (but not charge and attempt to occupy them?) while the British are planning to vacate them. Amazing. Yeah, I have no idea what that plan is about. Trying to trade a couple companies in exchange for finding some targets for the big guns?
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Apr 7, 2017 22:50
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Loel posted:What on earth are the boche doing Honestly, what the hell ARE they doing? Just about everything they did in the past round makes no sense to me, and I have the luxury of reading their thread.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:04
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The Boche are starting to look worryingly thin in the forest. If they get forced back to the fords that's going to be hilarious (and terrible for them).
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Apr 8, 2017 02:18
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Oh man I just notice that this installment's lunatic brigadier on a horse made it to La Dand. This sure as hell ain't over yet.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:32
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Who's in charge of that Divisionheadquaters again?Crazycryodude posted:Honestly, what the hell ARE they doing? Just about everything they did in the past round makes no sense to me, and I have the luxury of reading their thread. I think they were trying to innovate with some sort of hit-and-run move; the artillery suppresses what's in the trench, the infantry finishes them off, then they withdraw back to safety. Which would be a decent plan if the brigade they were attacking was isolated, but as we've seen a couple times now, a single brigade moving in daylight in front of the enemy guns is not going to have a good time. Also, I like that last thread we were all wondering if you (on the German side) were reading the observer thread, and now the a German commander is worried that the Entente is doing it right back this game.  Istvun posted:It was very rude of us to not play the hokey pokey with them. This made me burst out laughing though. "We advanced, but the enemy withdrew, so nobody could charge anyone!"
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Apr 8, 2017 02:51
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Another turn where things have gone as bad as possible for the Germans. Operation: Boomerang was not only useless and ineffective, it exposed previously safe and hidden units to death just to shoot at nothing. Sniper4625 is going to be feeling real stupid after the battle ends and he can read everything else that happened. Lenoon's line of fire searching for the German artillery seems reasonable, they already knew the artillery were right up next to the river with aerial spotting, so it follows that they'd cross and try to get up as close to the forest as possible, and the barbed wire provides a line that already guides the eye along those lines. His orders were also a wee bit further south than where the main gunline was actually set up, and at a slightly different angle. quote:quote:And if I understand correctly, some British engineer got drunk and demolished a bridge on their side? Is that some old order from when they were panicking? Because the Germans are now definitely not going to be taking any more ground than what the British foolishly give to them any time soon.
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Apr 8, 2017 03:15
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SlothfulCobra posted:The only thing that makes me dubious is his bizarre last second freakout about how he probably got the location wrong right when it was too late to change orders, because that makes this whole thing just a bit too idiotically serendipitous. I thought this was a little weird too, but...  I'd like to believe no one is sad enough to feel the need to cheat at these things.
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Apr 8, 2017 04:38
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Can't wait for Baccaruda (that solo command cavalry piece in La Dand) to cut the phone lines again or something. Seriously though, I'd think there would be some kind of repercussions for the Germans.
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Apr 8, 2017 04:55
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I think slicing up the phone lines and panicking them is enough of a penalty, tbh. A lunatic brigadier on a horse and his staff really can't do anything meaningful from back there so it's not particularly fair to end it in a sudden Entente victory or delay reinforcements or whatever because they technically got someone to La Dand.
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Apr 8, 2017 04:58
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The objectives for this game were never a simple "get men to this point" like the last game had. It was all about limiting the German advance westward, and they've still got Germans in Stethoscope, Chemin Creux, and across the river in Effyaders (although there's now the possibility they might get pushed back out of the forest at this rate). Even if they did punch all the way through La Dand, Trin mentioned being able to extend the map if need be. I really have to wonder what all the civilians (or NCOs if they have them there?) think of this crazy British man on a horse slashing at every phone wire he sees. Seems like the sort of thing that would make some noise. He'll probably get wiped up by the first reinforcements that come through La Dand, but he might get off a lucky shot before he goes down.
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Apr 8, 2017 05:18
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SlothfulCobra posted:
This gave me Don Quixote vibes for no good reason. Instead of charging windmills, he's charging telephone lines. 
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Apr 8, 2017 07:43
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I'd be more dubious of lenoon's precognition skills if he wasn't just following curly's lead. Plus if your only job is to run artillery, it seems reasonable to nerd out on where your highest priority targets are going to set up.
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Apr 8, 2017 14:12
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Both sides just planning to use their new division to shore up the line, instead of effect a break through at an enemy weak point. Trin you need to give these commanders a talking-to about elan.
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Apr 8, 2017 17:48
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The crazy phone line dude does have a full company with him though, right?
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Apr 8, 2017 17:56
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He's a single chit. I think he does fight like a regular coy, but when reinforcements come in and he gets swatted by a full brigade, he doesn't really stand a chance.
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Apr 8, 2017 18:45
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Brigade HQ is a fighting stand. Division HQ is not. If he were a fighting stand, he'd have waited for contact before trying to flee.
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Apr 8, 2017 18:52
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The Germans are going to lose every game if they don't stop being salty and disorganised. Steinrokkan screaming about cheating after a reenactment of Monty Python's How Not To Be Seen is just sad. I liked the runner system too but it was clearly insanely fiddly for Trin. I'm hoping the germans get some better team players next game or the war will really be over by Christmas
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Apr 9, 2017 15:36
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On the other hand, it would be far less entertaining as a spectacle if we didn't have German loss -> instant meltdown by one or more commanders -> sensible measured comeback to restore hope -> another German loss -> repeat Meanwhile the Entente side are all 'lol whoops looks like we just sent a bunch of guys to their doom for mad lols OH WELL' It's really v period accurate
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Apr 9, 2017 17:19
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Yeah the meltdowns and/or salt mines are rather amusing from the outside looking in, but in measured doses.
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Apr 9, 2017 17:23
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Honestly, steinrokkan works best when he is not put under any kind of pressure. In those conditions, he is a great asset. When I was Corps, I knew I could rely on him to come up with plans and ideas, and never forget to point out something I was forgetting. But the moment he does get into a situation where there is pressure and something does not go his way, he immediately starts playing the blame game like a champ. He gets salty as all hell and does not hesitate to export it to others. Sandman being in his division last game was a perpetual feedback loop that only stopped when they both ran out of troops and could chill out for a while. (Then they both got more troops and it started again, albeit not as strongly.) I think the only position where he could actually be an asset when on the offence is Corps Command. That way, he can't pass the buck any more and has to deal with things rather than yell at others/Trin for dealing with them poorly with the benefit of hindsight. And although I disagree with his perpetually defensive inclination, I think he could put some work in when on that level.
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Apr 9, 2017 22:08
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I am appreciating the creeping paranoia the delayed turn results are causing in the BEF and German threads.
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Apr 12, 2017 03:16
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Green Intern posted:I am appreciating the creeping paranoia the delayed turn results are causing in the BEF and German threads. I'm enjoying the Germans debating Jumanji-style scenarios of Trin being sucked into his gameboard.
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Apr 13, 2017 23:44
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Trin and Louis Barthas slogging through the trenches together is a strangely appealing image
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Apr 14, 2017 01:05
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