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I say pull back entirely and defend the bridgehead. Note - that means the area right around the bridge in the west side. They're going to feel frisky and charge again, after knowing exactly where to blindly fire of course.
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Apr 8, 2017 03:49
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they know we're in the SE trenches i'm sure, and they know where kev is now. i bet they still don't know where the 51st is. they might guess that they're at the bottom of the forest where the 51st went through and shell that, which would be great for us since we're not there. if they attack in the south or SE of the FdE we have plenty of guns that can offer supporting fire. they probably have guns that can hit kev, but they might have moved them too far south. certainly the ones that have been destroying us from those trenches can't hit him. i don't know if we can stay where we're at in certain places thanks to the artillery, but i don't think we need to pull back very far at all. we shouldn't let them have too much ground for free, and i think steinrokkan's position can be held. maybe we pull back from the SE corner, maybe we try to move kev but i kinda think we'll have more luck leaving him there and getting some reinforcements to him that does assume that we send the jagers north, though. at this point, i think that might be a good idea, to be honest. we have a defense in the south and we're starting to run out of chits in the north this rain should make it harder to go on the offense, but it also might give us less time to spot the enemy and direct artillery fire on them before they can close to contact, if they do attack us. that might be a reason to pull out of the SE of the FdE edit: and i'm still seeing that cav eng chilling out making trenches (or something), did it not get the orders to go down the southern road? oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 03:57
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Added Space posted:While I'm being angry, I'd like to congratulate Jaguars for sticking one brigade out on a branch and only getting it half-killed while accomplishing nothing. Progress! I have to laugh because otherwise I'd cry  I would say that the skirmishes with the 54th early this morning alerted the enemy to our prescence and they realized their position was untenable. They knew the guns were in the area and ordered a fire mission that overlapped the southern part of the gunline. Smart of them, rather frustrating for us. Nevermore214 posted:Finally read up to current in this thread; avoided the Entente and Observers thread. Is it too late to sign up for any openings in command (even at bottom of the list) or to be a Staff Officer? I'm sure we can find something for you to do. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 07:23
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PittTheElder posted:As Crazycryodude said, there does not appear to be anything amiss. Both sides have had their lucky and unlucky breaks, and if someone on the Entente thread is cheating, they're being damned clever about it. Please point at our lucky breaks. Anyway, I call bullshit. Getting some lucky hits is one thing. Targeting A COMPLEX SERIES OF INVISIBLE TARGETS FLAWLESSLY WITH PINPOINT ACCURACY, WITH NO APPARENT WASTED FIRE (unless they have, like, twice as many guns as us), AND WITH PERFECT TIMING IS NOT A LUCKY BREAK. The most cromulent explanation is that it is blatant cheating, no matter how much innocent acting is going on in the other thread per CCD. "They could have known there would be guns on that side of the river" - that is the weakest justification ever. THat knowledge doesn't account for the full knowledge of all the key factors in targeting the gun line - the length, angle, and starting point. The suitable area of the bank is several times larger than the zone where the guns are actually deployed, and again, unless they have a shitton of guns, they didn't just cover the whole intermediate area between the river and the forest with a single box to be shelled with invariable intensity, based on the limited options we have seen granted in our own fire missions, they must have picked a fairly small number of very deliberate targets. Additionally, back when Trin started this game, he talked about the thought that went into designing the ruleset. Now, I don't like playing a backseat GM, but he mentioned basically wanting to force people to act if they have reason to act, e.g. to prevent them from issuing telepathic orders to walk right to ambush an unseen foe. Now it would appear the introduction of indirect fire has thrown a wrench into this underpinning of the game - if a player can order an instant mission across half the map that just happens to wreck the enemy's most valuable assets with pixel precision, and justify it with some flimsy excuse of "i have a feeling", it is not conductive to a good game, and does, once again, open the question of cheating. Which I am convinced is going on. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 07:50
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we'll find out what our lucky breaks are (sounds like we rolled well on some of the charges and morale checks in the last few updates, i guess) and see why they hit our guns after this round is over, no hurry. and we'll see what we've hit with our indirect fire too for that matter i think the combination of universal knowledge of everything anybody on your team spots and only getting that information every 4/8 hours is making indirect fire an awkward mechanic, though. i'll have to see what it looks like from both sides really
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Apr 8, 2017 08:06
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I honestly think the enemy had the smallest combination of luck, and used some kind of spotter we didn't see -- either Air or Ground. They were able to see our artillery from there, and it's also possible they have something within 24" of our artillery to help them guess/learn our disposition. If we need to find something for me to do, let me go ahead and start tabulating enemy strength and possible disposition. I'd love to head up a Brigade or something, but for now you guys seem to need a Staff Officer more. I'll re-read the thread from the start of this mission forward, which'll be fun, and start putting together an "intelligence" report based on what we've seen so far, killed, and the engagements we've taken and where they approached form according to the finished adjudications.
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Apr 8, 2017 08:14
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Thanks new guy, good to see some fresh morale. Don't get killed and I might remember your name.
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Apr 8, 2017 08:28
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There was a spotter plane over the Ferme Intuille at 1000 this morning. At that point, the guns were in their old position but they were limbering up to move the next turn and that point would have been conveyed to the British, we've received similar comments. Not a great leap from there to predicting movement forward.
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Apr 8, 2017 08:36
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Enemy Situation What did we learn about the enemy from Von Jaguars' Folly? Not a loving lot. We were able to confirm the presence of a brigade in the Bois De Blob. I certainly didn't expect either set of trenches to be vacant. At first I believed that the enemy vacated their trenches with suspicious timing, but one simpler explanation is that the units encountered were pickets, a tactic that both sides have been using. Where are they? I have to work on the terms that we have rough parity to the enemy, I.E. they have fielded 8 brigades. The scout forces on both sides are ancient history and need not concern us. Of the 8, we have killed two, irreparably shattered another, spotted one in the Foret de Effyaders and one on the north side of the Bois de Blob. One more is very likely in the large center trench to form a continuous front line. That leaves two unknowns. Given a front line running Foret de Effyaders-Depression-Gun line-N. Bois de Blob, it's practically certain that one controls the southern end of the line, in a position that controls the southern road.  That leaves one more brigade and this one's location is difficult. First, where it's not: Anywhere in the FdE, there's no room for it. West of the FdE is under Kevz' observation. Not in the center of the enemy line, we just saw most of that. There's plenty of room for one more at the south end of the enemy line, as others have observed, they could even have crossed the stream. They could simply be in reserve back from the lines a bit. What are they going to do? There are some things we can be certain of. They'll shell what brigades they know the locations for. At the moment, that's the 54th and 53rd. They've also got a reasonable fix on the north artillery brigade. The most dangerous course of action would be to take the three brigades we aren't certain of and attack where we are weakest, is the south. But that would compromise the front lines and an attack by only one or two brigades would be more likely. Most likely course of action. Harder. Simplest would be sit back and light up a pipe and wait for us. Tweak the front lines and create backup trenches. They'll probably attempt to get rid of Kevz brigade now that they know about it. Artillery fire as mentioned. An attack in the middle is unlikely to work for various reasons. They don't appear to have the resources to attack at the top, although they could try. Orders to come once I've got some sleep - In the meantime, Saros has to decide on the basic course of action for his division so that we can use this update to prepare for it's arrival. At the moment I lean toward strengthening the lines with it and claiming no man's land in the south, this will effectively end the game unless the british have an brain aneurysm and perform a general attack. A bit supine, maybe, we aren't a hell of a lot better than a draw in my mind, but clearly the sensible thing to do. But I could be persuaded to break the lines with it if Saros and others want to and if a weak point can be found. All that needs to be decided now is to defend, or to attack at________ Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 11:05
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Woof. So I spent my whole night re-reading the mission so far. Most of this is conjecture, and watching the movements as they happen. I assume the Allies/Entente move just like we do, so I tried to take it into account when making my final assessment. So, to begin... INTELLIGENCE REPORT | Arrived 1600 These documents are deemed CLASSIFIED. For Command Staff. It is the assessment of Intelligence that we are dealing with a Corps-sized enemy force. This may come as no surprise, but their composition, disposition, and casualties are of great concern. The enemy first came into contact with us on Day 1, at roughly 1130 hours (D1 Turn 7). First contact was with a motorized brigade, designated A Bde or 1st Allied Armored Car Bde. They were approaching Stethoscope from the SOUTH, along the Sunken Road. Within an hour, this same brigade was decimated and turned back. Shortly after initial contact, B Bde of the Allied Forces, or the 1st Cavalry Bde was met. B Bde shoved us out of Stethoscope, apparently at high cost. We retook Stethoscope of course, inflicting hardly any casualties back against he enemy. It is likely that B Bde withdrew. During the night, our 3rd Brigade engaged an engineer Company in Bois de Blob. The Brigade this Coy was attached to is unknown, but if Intelligence were to hazard a guess, it would perhaps be B Bde, or the cavalry that took and then fell back from Stethoscope. On the morning of the 2nd day, D and E Brigades were spotted, both the 2nd and 3rd Entente infantry. (Intel note: Apologies for the jump in designations, this was due to documentation error, but for consistency's sake, we stuck to it and gave the next spotted Bde the C designation.) They were just outside of Bois de Blob to the WEST, and together overwhelmed our German brigade stationed there, but not without taking significant losses by mid-day. At mid-day, our 4th Infantry Bde moving into Forest de Effyaders from the EAST stumbled into UK trenches, This UK Infantry Bde was designated as the 1st UK Infantry, or C Bde. As well, the remnants of A Bde, the Armored Cars seen on the previous day, were spotted on the northern flank of Forest de Effyaders in a trench line. Within an hour, the remnants of A Bde would be destroyed. Mid-afternoon, artillery was spotted by one of our cavalry brigades along the center road, under the W half of Effyaders. They were designated as G Bde, or 1st Allied Artillery. At the same time, EAST of the spotted artillery, what is likely to be the remnants of B Bde was spotted, Allied Cavalry that had fled from Stethoscope the previous day and now occupied trenches on the south end of the forest, near the center road and forward of the artillery.. Our forces engaged theirs. Through the course of the rest of the day, B Bde was rendered COMBAT INEFFECTIVE. Meanwhile, in the Vallee trenches began to form in the Vallee that we could spot. By 2nd Night,we've likely rendered 3 Allied Brigades combat ineffective to one extent or another -- fighting in Effyaders finished off an Allied Cav and Armored car brigade, and an Allied infantry Brigade that committed to a charge between the trees was cut apart by cleverly-placed MGs on their right/eastern flank as they charged into us to their north. For an overview as of nightfall day 2:  In the middle of the night, in the early hours of Day 3, our phone lines are cut. Going to speed it up from here. Intelligence guesses that this is remnants of one of the destroyed brigades -- likely F Bde, or their 1st Allied Cavalry, who slipped through our thin center somehow. Otherwise, it may be from a separate Cavalry Bde, or a singular Armored Car company we missed in Effyaders -- the latter two are very unlikely in our opinion however. No truly new Bdes are spotted; fighting kind of expands and trenches in the Vallee and along the center road just beyond our sight are expanded. What may be a 2nd artillery brigade is spotted behind Effyaders, but is probably the 1st one we spotted, just relocated. A second gun battery is between de Blob and the Vallee in the trenches. As an addendum, I've included a map suggested by one of our esteemed leaders, Jaguars! with some small changes.  It is the belief of Intelligence that there is a second artillery unit behind Effyaders, and another possible Infantry brigade in the Vallee, forming a tertiary line of defense. It is entirely possible this tertiary line is being constructed by an infantry unit we clashed with the night or day before. It is the further belief of Intelligence that we have rendered 3 Brigades combat ineffective, with one brigade perhaps having a few Coys it is sending into our rear area. The enemy is likely to try and exploit our open southern flank. WE BELIEVE IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO TAKE OFFENSIVE ACTION AT THIS TIME. The enemy may try to exploit our southern flank further, and they are preparing defenses in-depth behind Effyaders Forest and within the Vallee, preventing forward progress. If we have more reinforcements coming, it would b wise to wait for them and see how the situation develops before committing ourselves to a COSTLY attack. In Effyaders forest, it may even be worth our while moving a Brigade into the "northern gap" between two of our brigades, in the trenches, to prevent a breakthrough of Allied forces there. EDIT: For legibility. Nevermore214 fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 11:44
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i really like the above posts. i agree that we should assume 8 enemy brigades, but i do want to share a bit of presumably true IRL history fact: http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/services/dropoff/schilling/mil_org/milorgan_99.html quote:A British infantry division in 1914 was composed of 3 brigades. Each brigade had 4 battalions; each battalion had four companies; and each company had 4 platoons. Thus, the division had 12 battalions. clearly, our organization is not IRL; we have eight brigades instead of four. this should highlight how highly hypothetical all this is, and we shouldn't lean on it however, it would not be deeply ahistorical if they had six to our eight but theirs were each 4/3rds as strong as ours, and we have spotted some large enemy brigades. they've been richer in inf but poorer in MGs and TMs though (they don't even have the latter, not that we do in the forest anyway, effectively), so it wouldn't be crazy for us both to have 8 also, counting our infantry chits, we have something like 19 in the TD and southern CC and 22 in the FdE. at this point we're actually pretty evenly distributed... our position in the south seems much stronger defensively, though, which is not a surprise since we created it intentionally and our FdE lines are nearly random. there's also the 5 chits in the searcher brigade that's headed back to FdE as of now. edit: can we try to help kev? i kind of think we just have to see if he's got the trenches and defense to hold out against whatever they can get up there. maybe if we wanted to do something fancy we could replace ikasuhito in TD with the searchers and send ika all the way up there? he'd get there after nightfall (and there's an off-road segment here so decent chances of catastrophic misdirection) but before the jagers. oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 17:16
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We've fielded 136 companies of foot troops. If the BEF has 8 brigades they had 144, if only 6, 108 companies. Since we know that historically german divisions were about 500 men less, (the difference would probably be equivalent to about 2-4 companies per division in this game), I think the eight brigade model is more likely. I think this turn will focus southward, if the enemy can be found we can work out a lot from his dispositions. In a six brigade model, there is only one more brigade to be found and that would indicate a hole in their line somewhere. wouldn't that be nice! But it'll remain a secondary possibility to me unless we can prove otherwise. Nevermore, I skimmed your findings and conclusions and there's a couple of things I spotted, we know for sure there are two brigades of guns on the field because we did see them both, and we're fairly sure that they aren't within 24" of kev's brigade because they'd be spotted. However, your recommendations are still valid
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Apr 8, 2017 21:36
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so... i think we still have 1 or 2 guns that can fire on the trenches with the enemy guns... did we get any shots off at them last update? i believe that the northern battery, the mostly dead one, was tasked with that - did they get suppressed, or did some fraction of the original fire make it there? alternatively, should we assume we've missed our chance to hit those guns and just give our fde guys maximum support, since the enemy attacking there is probably the most damaging possibility for the upcoming update? maybe the enemy has a brigade or 3 we haven't seen massing to attack, or maybe they're getting fatigued reinforcements and they're coming down the road next to kev this update i suppose the guns would also be available to support the south if needed. do we send an engineer down the south road this update? is that cav eng making a trench on orders to do that when it finishes making the trench? i think it might be. that would cover that, if so also, i think all of our trench mortars except the one in the CC (aside from the 2 in the searcher brigade behind steth) is in a forest and therefore cannot fire. pretty impressive that we do so well on the defense with one of our strongest advantages neutralized...
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Apr 8, 2017 23:13
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So... How would counter battery work if we wanted to implement it. There was talk about them possibly seeing our guns firing, and that leading to their reciprocation. How would one go about making sure that enemy guns get to be targeted with higher priority than anything else, even if they became visible during the active order phase, and far off from the guns. The trickle down design of commands makes fast retaliation unlikely due to the delay of information coming to batteries. Which means that an effective, reliable countering of enemy fire that doesn't rely on supposed lucky breaks is not possible, unless the enemy maintains position for long periods of time. To return to my previous post, there's a disconnect between playing by the book, using available field information relayed to units to make informed decisions, and playing according to one's hunches. The latter is actually more effective than the former, if the past turns are something to go by, even though that should be not the case, and the fact that it is so points at some flaws with the game design. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:16
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Jaguars! posted:Nevermore, I skimmed your findings and conclusions and there's a couple of things I spotted, we know for sure there are two brigades of guns on the field because we did see them both, and we're fairly sure that they aren't within 24" of kev's brigade because they'd be spotted. However, your recommendations are still valid Sorry for the lack of clarity there, I was sure there were 2 brigades of guns, and as for the 24" thing, I'll have to double check my notes, but I think after a previous bombardment we spotted the guns in the trenches between the Vallee and Blob. Trin said something like "Your men think these are the culprit." He may not have said 24", so I probably assumed. steinrokkan posted:To return to my previous post, there's a disconnect between playing by the book, using available field information relayed to units to make informed decisions, and playing according to one's hunches. The latter is actually more effective than the former, if the past turns are something to go by, even though that should be not the case, and the fact that it is so points at some flaws with the game design. Often in opening engagements, with little intel, you have to go by what little you know about the enemy and guess as to their disposition, goals, and movement. In a normal military operation, there would have been scouting before any kind of offensive, even if all intel got was "They're roughly here, and may be a platoon or a loving brigade, we just roughly know where they are." A lot of this intel-gathering is going to be hampered by the fact that goons love their zergling rushes and doing random weird stuff that wouldn't make sense out of the context of whatever they dreamed up as the "right strategy". Next mission, both sides would benefit from putting together a real plan that methodically took over portions of the battlefield. We're still in a good position, we shouldn't squander it by giving up what few advantages we have.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:42
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Nevermore214 posted:Sorry for the lack of clarity there, I was sure there were 2 brigades of guns, and as for the 24" thing, I'll have to double check my notes, but I think after a previous bombardment we spotted the guns in the trenches between the Vallee and Blob. Trin said something like "Your men think these are the culprit." He may not have said 24", so I probably assumed. I think the game would primarily benefit from a more structured approach, in lieu of the dropped runner system. When we used the runners, the game was naturally constrained - the Corps commander could write up whatever he wanted, but it would take time for his orders to filter to his divisions. Then the divisions would interpret those order, and take time passing them on to regiments. And it would all be one directional, unless the lower level commanders attempted to contact their commander to second guess him, which would take more time. So you'd have a system that was very rigid, and fostered gameplay oriented towards sober action. Now this is no longer the case, and you can pretty much do whatever you want, there is no constraining factor, players are limited only by how much they want to yell at each other about why they are bad at doing their thing, usually without any appreciation for the orders the other commanders have, or for what information they have available - this peer to peer networked model of command, instead of hierarchical one, makes no sense. And with indirect artillery entering the fray, that is a very, very significant problem. If we got a system where the artillery was actually subjected to commands coming through a single telegraph line from a command that could only make decisions based on information collected by scouts and other commanders, there would be far less friction in the game, and it would lead to fewer gently caress ups. Take the key failure of our forces, for instance, the ill fated offensive that divided our forces between two axes. The CO originally issued orders to the effect of only attacking at one zone, then, under pressure from other players, kept changing his intentions until it resulted in an unmitigated disaster. If he were limited to working in a framework of fixed information presented by the objective situation portrayed on the map, he would not have made the mistakes he had made. And conversely the lower officers would not have made all those changes to his intended orders had they been constrained by a requirement to first receive, then interpret orders, instead of meddling in affairs far above their ranks. Similarly artillery missions - I don't think a mission like the one that wrecked us would be likely if the enemy CO had to first receive the information about the starting point of our guns, then issue orders, relay them to his own artillery, which would then have to make the call of either executing them as is, or asking for a change in orders, wasting time in the process. Personally I find the current free for all model to be pretty disappointing overall, the structured approach presented in the first match was largely why I signed up in the first place, and I think it worked great for the time it was used. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:59
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I don't think the enemy cheated with hitting our artillery they saw our guns limbering up and the only real choices we had for moving them was further back towards our own rear lines or forward to the edge of the forest as the enemy knows as we do that artillery can't fire in the forest. Moving further back would likely mean less chance of support for our units so the most likely choice would have been to move straight up and so it wouldn't have taken much guess work to figure out the most likely location we could have moved our guns to and shell the location. As for the surviving guns I think we need to move them out ASAP before the remaining guns get finished off and then I would suggest either moving them slightly north or back across the river and having them on permanent supporting fire role. North would likely be better I would say. Also do they have to be in a direct line can we have them in a more scattered formation so that the enemy can't just walk a braage down and smash a number of guns? Also leading on from steinrokkan's post about command orders etc, we really should all be following the command chain. if you think you have an idea then pass it up the chain but it is up to the commander to decide if he likes it and goes with it and if he tells you to do something different you suck it up and do it as per orders. Ideally the command chain should go like this: Company Commander: Decides on the overall plan, where to attack and with how much. What assists should be used to assist an attacks/defense. Division Commanders: Following the Company Commander's plan you should think which brigades should attack and defend from, which paths they should take to their objectives. What timing should be used. Brigade Commanders: Following the Division Commander's you should follow his plan and decide what formation to use for your brigade and what standing and conditional orders you will need to go with. You also need to decide on how you want your division to deploy on reaching their objectives. On another topic I am still confused by how supporting fire works for artillery. According to the way Trin wrote it supporting fire would have a delay in coming in depending on how far away the brigade calling for the support fire is from the artillery with a 1,2 or 3+ delay based on distance. yet almost every instance I can think of that supporting artillery fire has been used the supporting artillery fire has come down almost instantly. Example of this would be Day 3 Turn 27: The 54th left their trenches and moved south and at the end of their movement spotted some BEf units occupying the southern section of the central trenches. Day 3 Turn 28: The 54th advance again and close the distance and immediately have a whole load of artillery drop on top of their heads. Even with the admittedly short distances involved it would have taken at least 2 turns for the BEF units in the central trenches to have got a runner out to the artillery to their west and have them request artillery support. Instead in the length of 1 turn they managed to get it. This is unless of course they had LOS on our guys with the guns directly but then we would have seen them with the 54th not the other unit. In addition Trin as fun as seeing the descriptions of Kaboom and the enemy MG made your view of the situation change we need more information. For example when you said the enemy MG opened fire on my 53rd in the north of the forest and said "Then. about 4.4" to the south, an enemy machine-gun opens up against the 53rd and prompts a frank exchange of views" I had a hard time working out exactly what happened as you didn't actually include much information. The first picture showing the engineer and my unit shows the engineer dead which you said I killed but not with what but also shows my TM suppressed was that the enemy engineer with his rifles? If so how as clearly or possibly my mortar suppressed it first? I don't know because you haven't told me what actually happened. Then we have the next picture underneath after your very little detailed by funny fluff based line. In this picture I can see one of my rifle companies is suppressed and one of the BEf rifle companies is suppressed and dead. How did this happen? What shot what exactly? I don't know because it isn't explained. In short, we need more details with the fluff and pictures, we need to know what companies are suppressed and killed and just as importantly what did the firing that caused said results. koolkevz666 fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 00:01
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Lets see. We got counterfired on the first turn of the update. BEF Guns #1 was responsible because BEF guns #2 was known to be on the move. They fired for 4 turns then switched to fire against the 54th in the center. Per Trin's comment on turn 30, Our fire missions operated as planned (less our gun casualties ofc). They started counter-battery fire missions on turn 27 and continued. All the surviving guns were just in range of the near BEF trench, so they had targets. On turn 28 we saw their guns and every one of them was unhurt. Turn 29 they fired and we counterbatteried but no picture of them was given so presumably their situation was still the same. Turn 30 saw more fire on their guns but we moved away and didn't see the result. They can't see any of our guns, although if they figured to move their fire mission north to cover the rest of the ground in that little area between the stream and the forest that could be bad for our guns, although at least they're in trenches now. However they know locations for two other brigades and might bombard them instead. Counter battery isn't hard, all we have to do is set a fire mission on their trenches. My fuckup with the guns has left us with mostly medium cannons though, so it would be weaker than otherwise. If I had to do it, I'd hit the front trench for the whole update with the hope that enough firemissions will eventually hit kill all the guns located there. Their guns might move away while we're doing it, but my hunch is that they will stay and use the opportunity to hit the 54th again. They can't see it, but it's reasonable for it to still be there. OTF, I've been trying to figure out why their brigades appeared where they did for a while, and I think they have a reinforcement point at the south end of the road. If it had been in the north, the enemy would have got got the FdE first and we would have run into static defenses or been fighting the BEF infantry from the outside in. The battle of the Blob happened at about the same time as we got our first infantry coming in, IIRC, so that's perhaps the more likely reinforcement point. ed: Kev, I simulposted with you; this is referring to the two posts above. editedit oh poo poo, missed a whole discussion. was originally replying to OTF and steinrokkan Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 00:27
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I think that if the campaign continues through the war, it'll get more and more scientific as people learn the lessons of the past. A 1915 or a somme situation will be all trenches all the time and extremely hard to play. I liked the runner system too. It was counter-intuitive until you realized that it represents less the flow of orders and more the back and forth between HQs with scraps of information about where the enemy was spotted, where friendly brigades have reached, all the stuff a brigadier on the ground needs when they make their decisions. And the result was truly excellent at replicating the way that WWII units tended to move and react, I think. I see Saros' brigade had a turn in the open before the guns responded. Perhaps from that we can infer that the brigade we saw runs along the north side of the Bois de Blob, with brigade command in the center. Most weren't seen because they didn't have the range to reveal themselves. The command would then be good enough to allow a fast response.
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Apr 9, 2017 01:01
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So, have you worked out your singular plan yet boss?
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Apr 9, 2017 01:23
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OK. A moment ago I was about to make a joke about plans involving washing clothes, weeding the garden, planning some dinners and going on a bushwalk with friends. A text has just come through to me that the response to the edgecumbe flooding is mobilizing and as soon as I can confirm it , I'm getting ready to go. Your're going to need a sublimely ridiculous fourth new corps commander and a replacement as division commander of the 26th. Nevermore, keep working on the intel picture, try and condense it a bit to make it more readable. You should be able to land a brigade somewhere as well. Thus, what I advise is:  *Command Structure* *Roll20 table* *Pre-turn checklist* *Travel times* *Movement, cover and spotting* *Firing and combat* *Firing demo* *Billy bonus* *Command and Control* *Night rules* *Writing orders including standing orders* *Relationship between standing orders and conditionals *Example orders* *Brigades, Fatigue, New terrain, indirect fire, engineer times, new hill spotting* *Trenches and terrain* Arrows! Formations! Conditionals! Standing Orders!  IV Corps orders1st Guards division is due just after the end of this update. It will take up defensive positions in the center of the line, leaving the 40th to cover a reduced frontage at the very south and the 26th will consolidate in the FdE All units: Keep your brigade commanders alive. That's not saying some special formation with them way back or something, thats don't do anything foolish that risks a brigade. Keep them until we can get replacement companies in the morning. Even a fatigued brigade can fill in on defence, freeing up fresh units. 40th Div: Keep alive, you may scout the area up to the ford if you judge that reasonable. I feel any attack coming is most likely to be down south, so be on your guard. 26th Div: try link up a line centered around Steinrokkan's brigade. Assess the risk of indirect on Kevz' and Saros' brigade. Moving out of the trenches and reoccupying at night is a possibility. So is sticking it out. Steinrokkans brigade should be able to take anything they throw at us. Use fathis' to fill a hole somewhere. Estimated threat is a two brigade attack, a third is possible but unlikely. Artillery: You could counterbattery the guns from last turn or move to the end of the trenches occupied by the 54th last night to avoid indirect fire. Others are going to have to continue this discussion. Engineers - keep doing what you've been doing all along, making defending brigades more powerful by placing wire and trenches. Generalleutnant (Acting reservist private) Jaguars! out. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 03:00
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drat, a levee breach. good luck out there i guess we can run this update off of those orders; who's writing the divisional orders now? we don't need to worry about who our next corps commander is until Monday night.
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Apr 9, 2017 03:15
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Yeah, hopefully it's the army giving four hours notice to something that happened two days ago and not some new emergency situation, news hasn't reported anything and they're already in the area.
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Apr 9, 2017 03:24
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I've gone in and edited the overall map to reflect my intel report findings. To Reiterate: this is my best guess as to the enemy's positions. Units with a solid outline are HIGHLY PROBABLE/DEFINITE, whereas dotted lines are GUESSES/LAST SEEN locations.There is a dotted arrow on the south, indicating what I believe that brigade will be doing in the coming turns. I'll try to keep these updates up as more intel becomes available. Let me know if there's any way I can improve these, or if you would like any of the assets I used to create the image. I think next update I will indicate the brigades' strengths, but I have to decide on what I could add without reducing legibility. Edit: Clarification edit. Edit2: Would probably help if I put in the cropped version instead... Nevermore214 fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 04:39
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Well, that was a gently caress around. Sat in the (closed) garrison bar for a few hours until eventually it was confirmed that they only needed a few people to fill out the numbers. Lost an afternoon but it doesn't gently caress up my week and I get about $50 plus a meal allowance. Command crisis over, I guess. I'll see about getting some more detailed orders out for the 26th division. Nevermore, I'm pretty sure one enemy cav bde was routed in front of stethoscope (routed units are removed from the map permanently) and one was destroyed by artillery fire on the western outskirts of FdE. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 10:14
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Jaguars! posted:Nevermore, I'm pretty sure one enemy cav bde was routed in front of stethoscope (routed units are removed from the map permanently) and one was destroyed by artillery fire on the western outskirts of FdE. I know it disappeared after some fighting (it was in some trenches right?) but did we get real confirmation on that 2nd Cav? I may have missed something, I was exhausted at the time I re-read the mission. Since I wasn't sure in my most recent post, I didn't put up a marker on the picture. Just mentioned it in the sidebar.
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Apr 9, 2017 11:25
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Orders for 26th Division 51st: I don't think there's any better position for your brigade, Steinrokkan. It dominates most of the forest. Still, if you want to make small adjustments, you can. 52nd: Take up positions north of Steinrokkan. 53rd: I'm sure the BEF would like to attack you but I'm not sure they have the resources to do anything other than a suicide attack. I'm not sure about the guns that could bombard you, there's no motive for them to have moved the guns locally, what would a repositioning achieve. Still, shelling by heavy guns is a possibility, and if you think you would be safer by moving them, you should be able to get away eastward without being observed now that you've killed their northmost guard. Note that the BEF will template their fire missions for a full sized brigade so the forest is a danger zone for a few inches east. If you want me to make the decision, that I should be checking in on the thread regularly tomorrow. 54th: I can't predict whether the BEF will fire on you or go after the last of the guns. I'm inclined to be prudent and send you via the trenches to a position just above that wire on Steinrokkan's east flank. However, if you stay in your present trenches, that's OK too. Nevermore214 posted:I know it disappeared after some fighting (it was in some trenches right?) but did we get real confirmation on that 2nd Cav? I may have missed something, I was exhausted at the time I re-read the mission. They bite it on day 2, 1800. last bit shown. link Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 11:46
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Ah. Thanks for pointing that out. No phantom brigades then! My bad.
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Apr 9, 2017 12:09
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Trin Tragula posted:
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Apr 9, 2017 12:17
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glad to hear you're not needed for the flood. hopefully that's a good sign for the people under that levee i still think there's the possibility of that chit having orders like 'hide in A during the day, cut the road wire at night on the way to B, hide in B during the day, rinse, repeat' for the rest of the scenario. it's something i imagined when i first read trin's telephone wire rules the sound of that description, however, makes me wonder if it actually had 'run away from anybody you see before they see you' orders, in which case: 1) its success at getting out before being spotted highlights a constraint imposed by the way I and others murdered all our cavalry (arguably for concrete, lasting gains) - we're just not equipped for this search and destroy mission 2) i'd have a much harder time believing that the chit is still carrying multi-day conditionals around in its order queue after having to hit the scramble button in general i think people changed their priorities after we found out that our wire problem probably was caused by one chit we can't catch how do replacement chits work? are they gonna show up in the morning for all brigades whose hqs have survived, but infantry chits only? do we always get them, or is it something we find out from trin on an ad hoc basis?
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Apr 9, 2017 16:02
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My two thoughts: A) Possibility of having Kevs brigade or others move forward just slightly enough to seize the North road to the West of FDE? Seems like control of that might prove useful in the metagame, and thus worth the risk. B) I was mulling moving the under siege artillery forward into the forest, with and eventual goal of setting up shop on the western edge. Moving back takes them largely out of the fight pending much closer enemies, and id love to keep the useful/extend our artillery umbrella. If people believe it's an impractical plan, I can reevaluate.
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Apr 9, 2017 17:14
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i don't think kev's brigade has the manpower to hold a position further west in the clear. kev already represents a threat to the northern road which they have to respond to as is, and we are likely to have the advantage in the reinforcement race, so i think we're better off staying on the defensive i don't think we're going to make more offensive gains in general without reinforcements - we only have 22 infantry chits in the FdE right now, i believe. the searchers only have like 2 more and they won't be back until nightfall anyway that does put some pretty harsh constraints on our artillery placement, but at least we've kept them from putting artillery in the central clearing between the FdE and blob so i don't think he should assault, and anyway we've only got a day of real time to get this done and the orders tell him not to. kev can decide whether or not to move around in response to the likely artillery blast, but i think it might be better to just take it where he's at. we have examples of entrenched troops taking shelling in past updates, but i haven't reviewed them. edit: i think the nature of the FdE-blob central part of the map is that both sides will be able to shell the forests from the E or W but they won't be able to safely get guns into counterbattery range. we just have to win the indirect fire war. good thing we have more guns on the way, too bad we've been so close yet so far from doing real damage to their guns edit2: although since we do still have a few guns in range of the northern gun trench, i think, and it's possible they don't know we still have guns north of where they hit last update, maybe we should stick around and hit them to start this update? i don't know, it's none of my business edit3: it looks like that new trench the engineer dug on our side of the river is juuuust within range of that same front gun trench - i think we need to keep those guns emplaced so they can offer support fire, though, since we're defending this update oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 18:43
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Sniper, As I see it, you have two choices for that artillery brigade: move it north into the next trench or couterfire the enemy position for the whole update. Moving into the next trenches is a prudent move that will preserve your guns. You might even get to keep that heavy howitzer which will be handy. While it puts offensive support out of the question, it's an excellent support position for the units in FdE. Counterfiring the enemy is of course risky. They might hit your trenches and cause further casualties or even eliminate your gun line. But it allows you to fire at the last known gun position. If you take this option, smash the enemy forward trench for the whole update. Somehow I missed that more guns are due to arrive and I was definitely leaning toward evasive action. With more guns available, it might be worth it to take the risk. Couterfire opportunities are extremely hard to come by. And of course, next turn you'll have to move as they counter-counter battery. Don't forget, you aren't the only target out there. I'm hoping they will react to the discovery of Kevz brigade and pull resources from whatever they're planning next, and they might hit Saros' trenches too. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 21:34
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 Hold until current trenches are finished (turn 35).  Advance for the barb wire in the current formation. If enemies are spotted east of the river, retreat to the Chemin Creux trenches. Adopt the following formation and hold.  Any reinforcements should form a second line parallel to the front line just west of BriCom. Defend Use Rifle Fire Do Not Pursue Retreat at 2/3rds casualties Added Space fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 21:37
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Might be better to break off at a low level and preserve your cadre than fight to the death. Final stands usually don't achieve much as the enemy gangs up on the last puny remnants.
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Apr 9, 2017 21:41
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Jaguars! posted:Sniper, As I see it, you have two choices for that artillery brigade: move it north into the next trench or couterfire the enemy position for the whole update. Definitely leaning towards counterfire in this case - the more we can disrupt their arty line, the less damage they can do in turn. Pulling back may or may not save the remnants of the brigade at the cost of whatever units we lose to bombardment, and with imminent reinforcements I'm willing to take the risk.
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Apr 9, 2017 21:41
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Why not wait for the new division before advancing? That way the whole advance doesn't evaporate at the first sign of trouble, leaving us pantsless.
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Apr 9, 2017 21:45
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aphid_licker posted:Why not wait for the new division before advancing? That way the whole advance doesn't evaporate at the first sign of trouble, leaving us pantsless. I'm not so much advancing as sweeping the area. Our best chance to stop any enemy doing another crossing is at the fords, so if we defend there we're in a much better place then if we give them room to assemble on the east bank.
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Apr 9, 2017 21:52
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i like the idea of counterfire for sniper. if they are targeted then at least they're in trenches, and obviously if they're not then we might actually finally get some shells on those loving enemy guns! we'll see how that goes. added space, the one threat i see from the enemy across the river down south is if they can set up artillery there, and we can't spot it in time to destroy it with our own before it entrenches. absent that possibility, i think we're better off defending at the CC and TD, which should be out of range of their artillery. if we advance all the way to the river edge the enemy can use their artillery on us for sure. Maybe ikasuhito could do the sweeping? get those TMs into the open, leave a few guys to defend the TD, set up a bunch of pickets and occupy more trench line? we can be pretty sure at this point that they're not going to attack over the center... right? --- so i assembled links to each of the updates in this campaign, then completed this insanely spergy thing for day 1, trying to really wrap my head around the results of our various battles and skirmishes - might continue with the rest in the future. Day 1, Turn 1, 0800.
Day 1, Turn 9, 1200.
Day 1, Turn 17, 1600.
Day 1, Turn 25, 2000.
and here are the rest of the turn links: Day 2, Turn 16*, 0800. Day 2, Turn 24, 1200. Day 2, Turn 32, 1600. Day 2, Turn 40, 2000. Day 3, Turn 4, 0200. Day 3, Turn 16, 0800. Day 3, Turn 24, 1200. edit forgot the *: *note that Day 1 turn designations are really Turn X of the scenario, which started at 0800, so there's only 32 turns in day 1, and Day 1 starts at Turn 1=0800 while subsequent days start at Turn 0=0000. it's not worth thinking about oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 22:07
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aphid_licker posted:Why not wait for the new division before advancing? That way the whole advance doesn't evaporate at the first sign of trouble, leaving us pantsless. I'd say Added Space is doing what is necessary to protect a place for the reinforcements to deploy... If the BEF guys get an opportunity to cross unchallenged, it will be harder for the new troops to form up and be useful,
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Apr 9, 2017 22:24
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