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Triangle Shirt Factotum posted:What point are you trying to make? That the massive inflation in the cost of a university education started when students were unable to discharge debt in bankruptcy. This allowed the tuition fees to inflate, because the banks were guaranteed to get even crazy high loans back. Everyone seems to be thinking that my point is that universities should be allowed to take degree certificates for non-payment, which is absolutely not my point. That would be extremely evil. This would be for degrees the holder doesn't want anymore (failed, not finished, not relevant to career.)
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May 1, 2017 19:12
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PT6A posted:Yes, I agree. Because if "voiding a degree" for nonpayment was a real thing it'd presumably take some sort of time. It's not gonna be like you don't pay the degree bill this week and they shut your degree off. Whatever standard of nonpayment that got you to the level they were revoking your degree would happen long after that really mattered that much. You'd still know all the stuff you learned and would have job history in the field.
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May 1, 2017 19:15
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I think if it were possible to void your degree in the event that you needed to declare bankruptcy to discharge your loans, employers all over would find some way to cut your pay or terminate you or some other way to gently caress you over for not being able to repay student loans. God forbid if you were a doctor or lawyer and that happened.
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May 1, 2017 19:22
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Because if "voiding a degree" for nonpayment was a real thing it'd presumably take some sort of time. It's not gonna be like you don't pay the degree bill this week and they shut your degree off. Whatever standard of nonpayment that got you to the level they were revoking your degree would happen long after that really mattered that much. You'd still know all the stuff you learned and would have job history in the field. Or you couldn't find a job in the field your degree prepared you for (or didn't prepare you for) and as a consequence you're unable to find a job that allows you to survive while encumbered by the debt you accrued while earning the degree. You give back your degree to the financial institution that owns it and go through bankruptcy proceedings to get out from under the debt. Same as you would with a car or a house. You had the use of the house or car while you were paying off your loans, but you didn't really own them. The bank still had title. Star Man posted:I think if it were possible to void your degree in the event that you needed to declare bankruptcy to discharge your loans, employers all over would find some way to cut your pay or terminate you or some other way to gently caress you over for not being able to repay student loans. God forbid if you were a doctor or lawyer and that happened. BigFactory fucked around with this message at 19:33 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 19:25
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BarbarianElephant posted:That the massive inflation in the cost of a university education started when students were unable to discharge debt in bankruptcy. This allowed the tuition fees to inflate, because the banks were guaranteed to get even crazy high loans back. Okay, so it feels like we are agreeing on values past each other. Gotcha. I don't think your proposal is all that sensible to me since education isn't a physical good that you can take away from somebody, but others ITT are already arguing it along the same lines I would, so I'd probably just add more complexity to defending it without adding value.
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May 1, 2017 19:41
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BigFactory posted:Or you couldn't find a job in the field your degree prepared you for (or didn't prepare you for) and as a consequence you're unable to find a job that allows you to survive while encumbered by the debt you accrued while earning the degree. You give back your degree to the financial institution that owns it and go through bankruptcy proceedings to get out from under the debt. Same as you would with a car or a house. You had the use of the house or car while you were paying off your loans, but you didn't really own them. The bank still had title. Again, that still feels like it's falling into major edgelord "education is just a piece of paper MAN". Like yeah, there are times the paper matters, but there is an awful lot of times it doesn't. And you can't give back an education. Can you unvoid it later? can you void and unvoid it back and forth? Can I activate my degree while jobhunting then turn it off when I have a job? If I void my degree then decide to get a new degree am I allowed to test out of spanish class and have an unfair advantage on the second degree because I already learned spanish or do I have to retake language electives? What if I hold multiple degrees? What if I have a PHd but my masters gets voided? What if I become certified to be a nurse then get my nursing degree voided, will the school call the state to un certify me? Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 19:41
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Again, that still feels like it's falling into major edgelord "education is just a piece of paper MAN". Like yeah, there are times the paper matters, but there is an awful lot of times it doesn't. And you can't give back an education. Can you unvoid it later? can you void and unvoid it back and forth? Can I activate my degree while jobhunting then turn it off when I have a job? If I void my degree then decide to get a new degree am I allowed to test out of spanish class and have an unfair advantage on the second degree because I already learned spanish or do I have to retake language electives? What if I hold multiple degrees? What if I have a PHd but my masters gets voided? What if I become certified to be a nurse then get my nursing degree voided, will the school call the state to un certify me? I think you're talking about all sorts of edge cases unrelated to the specific, but relatively profound scenario of someone who is saddled with onerous student debt who is unable to find employment in the field they trained in. Their degree is an albatross around their neck, not a benefit. It's all pretty stupid, though, because when a bank forecloses on a house, they do it because a house has transferable value. A degree does not. In that situation it literally is just a piece of paper the bank is collecting. It's strictly punitive, but if the alternative is not being able to get debt relief under any circumstance, it's better than what we have now. But to answer your question, if you're currently employed in a field where you are utilizing the college degree you earned, you probably wouldn't want to forfeit your degree just to have the ability to file for bankruptcy. It's a specific remedy to a specific problem. BigFactory fucked around with this message at 19:53 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 19:50
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BigFactory posted:I think you're talking about all sorts of edge cases unrelated to the specific, but relatively profound scenario of someone who is saddled with onerous student debt who is unable to find employment in the field they trained in. Their degree is an albatross around their neck, not a benefit. Yeah, that's exactly what I meant! BigFactory posted:It's all pretty stupid, though, because when a bank forecloses on a house, they do it because a house has transferable value. A degree does not. In that situation it literally is just a piece of paper the bank is collecting. It's strictly punitive, but if the alternative is not being able to get debt relief under any circumstance, it's better than what we have now. I think that foreclosed houses are less valuable than you might think. They tend to be delivered in bad condition because the inhabitants are pissed off, and in areas that are going downhill (otherwise they would be able to sell the house and pay off the debt.) It's mostly punitive. If bankruptcy for student loans was possible, lenders would be more willing to make deals like they do with medical debt, potentially benefiting people who have a degree they want to keep, but who can't reasonably pay the full price. Medical debt can't be repossessed either (sorry guy, we're going to have to take your pacemaker.)
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May 1, 2017 19:59
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BigFactory posted:I think you're talking about all sorts of edge cases unrelated to the specific, but relatively profound scenario of someone who is saddled with onerous student debt who is unable to find employment in the field they trained in. Their degree is an albatross around their neck, not a benefit. I think it's kinda the definition of edgelord edgy to claim that having learned something from school is the edge case compared to it just being a piece of paper MAN. If someone had lost their degree and we did live in a world only the paper mattered then questions of them paying to regain the degree or getting a different degree at a different school later doesn't seem like edge cases at all.
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May 1, 2017 20:27
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think it's kinda the definition of edgelord edgy to claim that having learned something from school is the edge case compared to it just being a piece of paper MAN. I think you're missing the point.
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May 1, 2017 20:32
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BigFactory posted:I think you're missing the point. The point is that voiding a degree is really really dumb. You keep the education. And if you want to pretend paper is all that matters it opens millions of unanswerable questions about how a revocable degree would even be implemented.
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May 1, 2017 20:44
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The point is that voiding a degree is really really dumb. You keep the education. And if you want to pretend paper is all that matters it opens millions of unanswerable questions about how a revocable degree would even be implemented. Lobotomy.
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May 1, 2017 20:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The point is that voiding a degree is really really dumb. You keep the education. And if you want to pretend paper is all that matters it opens millions of unanswerable questions about how a revocable degree would even be implemented. Here's how: An employer would phone the university to say "Did John Doe obtain a degree in the field of underwater basket weaving at your institution? You can't confirm that? OK, thanks!" If the employer didn't care it wouldn't matter. But this would be largely for people who didn't envision ever using the degree - usually because they didn't complete it.
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May 1, 2017 20:57
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BarbarianElephant posted:Suggests they are correlated, no? DeVos striking early and hard
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May 1, 2017 20:58
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A friend posted this on Facebook and I have many feels about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mom-declares-her-daughter-is-done-with-homework-in-viral-email_us_59020abbe4b0af6d718c4fcb TL;DR the mother has watched her 10 year old slowly get more and more stressed about her homework and seen her workload increase a bunch and sent an e-mail to the principal nope-ing out of any remaining HW for the rest of the year. While I agree that there's a pretty big pitfall in education still of just slapping down a shitton of busy work and there definitely is a point of too much homework, I don't think "no more homework sorry" is the right answer unless the teacher has set up the class in such a way so that the reinforcement of concepts isn't needed to be done at home. And maybe this school isn't great at that, maybe this is a ton of busywork and this is a justified e-mail, I don't know the lady or the kid or the school she's at. But if I had a parent who told me "my student isn't going to be doing your homework any more" I'd be pretty P.O.'d, because I work real hard to make sure my homework is relevant and reinforces their learning. Furthermore, for something like secondary education, yes, they're in school all day, but they don't see every subject every day unless they're one of the remaining schools that still does a traditional schedule (pretty rare around California), and for that reason ALONE they need to reinforce the stuff they're learning. It's also not comparable to a job because for the most part you have learned the skillsets needed to do your job in a very specialized manner, and if you need to learn something new you do it on your own time in a self directed manner or you take courses in your own time to be guided. The majority of children do not yet know how to do self-directed learning and that is another area where homework is preparing them with good practices on how to be lifelong learners. Her daughter has a lot of self-drive, which is fantastic, but chidlren aren't a blanket statement & for everyone to take her individual daughter's experience and blanketly apply it to "all homework is bad down with homework" is annoying. Thoughts? To me, homework is inherently good; busy work, for the most part, isn't, but you can't point to all homework and say "that's just busy work."
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May 2, 2017 01:07
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Lots of details missing there...but unless she's getting like +4 hours of work a night to do, honestly people need to grow up a bit. It's amazing how much the bar has slid in many places to like right now where I struggle getting kids to do a single assignment per week in class. Much of what I end up seeing is only justified laziness or learned helplessness..
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May 2, 2017 01:32
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Oxphocker posted:honestly people need to grow up a bit. as a grownup I generally think of work assigned at home as a red flag if it's more than a very very occasional thing at work. Like it happens and is unavoidable sometimes but it's not normal and shouldn't be normalized.
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May 2, 2017 02:28
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Oxphocker posted:Lots of details missing there...but unless she's getting like +4 hours of work a night to do, honestly people need to grow up a bit. It's amazing how much the bar has slid in many places to like right now where I struggle getting kids to do a single assignment per week in class. Much of what I end up seeing is only justified laziness or learned helplessness.. It says this ten year old is getting 3 hours a night of homework and that the child isn't struggling academically or behind the class. Three hours a night is too much.
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May 2, 2017 02:30
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Again, I teach high school, but our district policy is 30min a night per subject. At 6 subjects typically taken by students, that translates to 3 hours a night of homework. Yes, that should definitely be reduced for a 10 year old, but even 15min per subject is still 1.5 hours if she's doing a typical math, English, social studies, science, and then two extra subjects. Admittedly I have zero idea how elementary educators assign subjects over a day but are we saying 15-30 minutes a subject is overkill?
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May 2, 2017 02:43
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Yes I am saying that's overkill. I hope when my kid is 10 he's not spending hours at night doing homework.
sheri fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 02:45
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Yes three hours of homework a night is overkill.
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May 2, 2017 02:47
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For a ten year old, yes.
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May 2, 2017 02:50
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Quidthulhu posted:For a ten year old, yes.
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May 2, 2017 02:57
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Because as you progress through your education to higher level tasks they take longer to complete as you are learning how to do them? When are you suggesting students should reinforce and independently practice the material they have learned in order to complete the transfer to prior knowledge, so that they are able to then do it without reference or assistance?
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May 2, 2017 03:04
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Quidthulhu posted:Because as you progress through your education to higher level tasks they take longer to complete as you are learning how to do them? edit: Does three hours a day include weekends? If so, adjust numbers accordingly. twodot fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 03:11
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twodot posted:So you're not saying that 10 year olds need more free time, but rather that 17 years olds need more education time to accomplish their education goals? I'm legitimately trying to understand your point. If 17 year olds need 55 hours a week of education, but we're only willing to employ teachers for 40 hours a week, I get it, but I can't extract a thesis from your posts. Since when were teachers employed for 40 hours a week? Last I checked I was on a salary, like most of the professional workforce, where you work as much you need to work to accomplish your goals. What about college, for that matter? I had semesters where I had to read upwards of 25-30 books, plus... you know, classtime and assignments. And a loving job. When do you prepare kids for reality? litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 03:22 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 03:19
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litany of gulps posted:Since when were teachers employed for 40 hours a week? Last I checked I was on a salary, like most of the professional workforce, where you work as much you need to work to accomplish your goals.
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May 2, 2017 03:23
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twodot posted:If teachers are willing to work literally as many hours they need to work to accomplish their goals why is there such a thing as unsupervised school work? Why does your handler allow you to post unsupervised?
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May 2, 2017 03:23
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litany of gulps posted:
I'm on a salary and I rarely, if ever, do work outside my 40 hours a week.
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May 2, 2017 03:27
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litany of gulps posted:What about college, for that matter? I had semesters where I had to read upwards of 25-30 books, plus... you know, classtime and assignments. And a loving job. When do you prepare kids for reality? edit: Also, you sound like a person who attended college, but in my experience lecture hall hours at college was significantly smaller than the hours I was expected to attend school prior to college which seems extremely relevant and not addressed by you. twodot fucked around with this message at 03:31 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 03:28
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sheri posted:I'm on a salary and I rarely, if ever, do work outside my 40 hours a week. litany of gulps posted:Since when were teachers employed for 40 hours a week? Last I checked I was on a salary, like most of the professional workforce, where you work as much you need to work to accomplish your goals. Teachers work approximately 40 hours a week in a building teaching, but the job doesn't end when the school bell rings to dismiss class. That's part of the job. This isn't really news to anyone, anywhere. Maybe you're a programmer and you work your 40, but when the deadline is near, you work as much as you need to work. Maybe you're a manager and someone calls in - it doesn't matter if you've put in your 40, you fill in the gap. Most jobs are like this. Do you recognize this as a basic fact of salaried pay? If so, what is the purpose of your anecdotal claim here?
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May 2, 2017 03:35
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litany of gulps posted:Since when were teachers employed for 40 hours a week? Last I checked I was on a salary, like most of the professional workforce, where you work as much you need to work to accomplish your goals.
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May 2, 2017 03:35
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sheri posted:It says this ten year old is getting 3 hours a night of homework and that the child isn't struggling academically or behind the class. I have taught kids from 6 months to 13 year olds. Personally, I think we should be teaching kids to work smarter, not harder. Endless amounts of busy work just causes burnout and bores the rest of the students. I don't mind bringing mini review sheets home of what the class went over that day or week, but extensive review daily seems unnecessary. I would rather move from regular worksheets to individual projects that show the synthesis of material gleaned.
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May 2, 2017 03:38
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twodot posted:In the case of college, I think there's broad agreement that students need more education hours than classroom hours to learn the material, but also we're not willing to employee professors as baby sitters watching 20 year olds reading a book. Preparing kids for reality would involve have a generally fixed work week and paying them for their efforts, so the answer to that appears to be "after their education is done". So you acknowledge the absurdity of having 20 year old students do their independent work during classroom hours, but you question the validity of the idea of having 17 year old students do their independent work outside of classroom hours? You can argue that the guided workload is reduced, but if you are in favor of eliminating independent practice outside of school hours for secondary school, you surely understand that this means that the independent practice must be done during school hours.
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May 2, 2017 03:39
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Aren't there countries out there churning out higher educated kids with close to none or little homework?
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May 2, 2017 03:39
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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Here's an interesting summary on research on homework from March 2007: http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/mar07/vol64/num06/The-Case-For-and-Against-Homework.aspx I'm trying to figure out what the current research on homework says but I'm not doing a great googling job today.
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May 2, 2017 03:39
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litany of gulps posted:So you acknowledge the absurdity of having 20 year old students do their independent work during classroom hours, but you question the validity of the idea of having 17 year old students do their independent work outside of classroom hours? quote:You can argue that the guided workload is reduced, but if you are in favor of eliminating independent practice outside of school hours for secondary school, you surely understand that this means that the independent practice must be done during school hours. twodot fucked around with this message at 03:50 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 03:43
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Hastings posted:I have taught kids from 6 months to 13 year olds. Personally, I think we should be teaching kids to work smarter, not harder. Endless amounts of busy work just causes burnout and bores the rest of the students. I don't mind bringing mini review sheets home of what the class went over that day or week, but extensive review daily seems unnecessary. I would rather move from regular worksheets to individual projects that show the synthesis of material gleaned. The assumption of busywork seems questionable on its face. Maybe they're being assigned reading so that during class time they can actually analyze and discuss. The automatic dismissal of any homework as being invalid I think is faulty. You can't just say that all work outside of class is harmful or excessive. Actual independent practice or study obviously has value, does it not? When misapplied, it can certainly be ineffective. The automatic assumption that it will be and can only be misapplied comes from where?
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May 2, 2017 03:44
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litany of gulps posted:Teachers work approximately 40 hours a week in a building teaching, but the job doesn't end when the school bell rings to dismiss class. That's part of the job. This isn't really news to anyone, anywhere. Maybe you're a programmer and you work your 40, but when the deadline is near, you work as much as you need to work. Maybe you're a manager and someone calls in - it doesn't matter if you've put in your 40, you fill in the gap. Most jobs are like this. Do you recognize this as a basic fact of salaried pay? If so, what is the purpose of your anecdotal claim here? My point was my job doesn't require me to put in hours of work at home every night on a regular basis, so your argument of sending kids home with hours of homework every night to prepare them for "jobs and reality" isn't the best argument.
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May 2, 2017 03:46
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litany of gulps posted:The assumption of busywork seems questionable on its face. Maybe they're being assigned reading so that during class time they can actually analyze and discuss. The automatic dismissal of any homework as being invalid I think is faulty. You can't just say that all work outside of class is harmful or excessive. Actual independent practice or study obviously has value, does it not? When misapplied, it can certainly be ineffective. The automatic assumption that it will be and can only be misapplied comes from where? Right. The agreement research-wise seems to be that we can be better on homework in general and that young kids below 3rd grade should have 0-20 minutes of homework a night. That's not the same as don't give anyone homework because it's all busywork.
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May 2, 2017 03:53
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