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i'm the guy who has a stick up his rear end about teachers reporting working less hours relative to other professionals in the time after students typically leave the school, look at me, look at me (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 9, 2017 22:15
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Dmitri-9 posted:The School Improvement Grant program dumped $7 Billion on struggling schools with no significant benefit found. Look at the strings attached to that money: quote:The money went to states to distribute to their poorest-performing schools — those with exceedingly low graduation rates, or poor math and reading test scores, or both. Individual schools could receive up to $2 million per year for three years, on the condition that they adopt one of the Obama administration’s four preferred measures: replacing the principal and at least half the teachers, converting into a charter school, closing altogether, or undergoing a “transformation,” including hiring a new principal and adopting new instructional strategies, new teacher evaluations and a longer school day.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:17
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boner confessor posted:i'm the guy who has a stick up his rear end about teachers reporting working less hours relative to other professionals in the time after students typically leave the school, look at me, look at me Is that debate or discussion?
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Feb 9, 2017 22:18
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This was a good podcast about what happens when people who don't want their property taxes going towards public schools. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority
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Feb 9, 2017 22:18
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Money is not the answer for schools. Properly managed money is. You can't look at instances of money being spent poorly and go "see guys, cut all funding because money doesn't work."
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Feb 9, 2017 22:22
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BigFactory posted:Is that debate or discussion? is this? anyway you're glossing over the fact that pretty much all teachers are on the job by 7am according to the thing you're pulling cites from so i'm guessing you didn't read it too hard yourself, champ. or you have a weird boner for proving teachers are lazy without actually digging through your cites to see if that's the truth lol you're also completely ignoring, on the same page that lists avg. hours per week, that the averages includes medical/family leave as well as part time teachers (who by definition do not work 35 hours a week) so there's really no surprise that the average hours worked varies considerably by age (hmm why would younger teachers work less hours, i wonder...) boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 22:24
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boner confessor posted:is this? Point out what you're talking about.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:31
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BigFactory posted:Point out what you're talking about. boner confessor posted:you're also completely ignoring, on the same page that lists avg. hours per week, that the averages includes medical/family leave as well as part time teachers (who by definition do not work 35 hours a week) so there's really no surprise that the average hours worked varies considerably by age (hmm why would younger teachers work less hours, i wonder...) there's only one page that lists average hours per week, so you can't get lost
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Feb 9, 2017 22:33
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boner confessor posted:there's only one page that lists average hours per week, so you can't get lost Which page is that? They're numbered.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:35
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Quidthulhu posted:I would still wager that if we had some data with actual numbers attached rather than blanket "well they are working" you would find that teachers ARE working far more than the average working professional. Please present this data, if you think that the survey I linked is somehow suspect. IMO, you haven't really presented a good case for why the ~40 hours a week number in the survey is wrong. In any case, you have backed off from your original assertion that the average teacher is constantly pulling 60 hour work weeks.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:36
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As a parent and an active member of the PTA, teachers work their asses off, every goddamn day. They are there at 7:30 in the morning for early drop offs. They are outside helping kids out of the cars/busses at dropoff. They are in front of 25-30 kids every weekday with one small break for 7 hours a day, not sitting at a desk playing candy crush in another window with a spreadsheet open they occasionally type in. They grade everywhere I see them. 8PM after a PTA meeting I run into teachers grading or getting something ready in their classrooms for the next day. I see them around town in coffeeshops grading. Every after school activity has to have a teacher sponsor or it doesn't happen for liability reasons. Teachers volunteer or attend every holiday pageant, talent show, science fair, coach sports, show up to weekend events, and they are always, always pitching in even if they're just there as a spectator. Without being asked. They spend their own money on school supplies, niceties for the class, treats, snacks, etc. This does not take into consideration all the before and after school meetings, either with parents, fellow faculty, teacher training, in-service days, continuing education (which they by and large pay for yet which is required for them to keep their jobs) detention, etc etc. And they do all this with a smile on their face and a song in their heart (or at least put on a really loving good act; they all sound like goddamn Mary Poppins or Fred Rogers when after five minutes in a classroom of noisy children I am gnashing teeth and ready to hand out detention slips). I had no loving clue just how much work was involved in teaching until I started volunteering at my kid's school. You could not pay me enough to do their jobs. I have no idea how the ones who are both teachers and parents do it. They are criminally underpaid and I happily light into any ignorant mouth-breather who so much as dares to breathe a word of '9-3 and summers off lol dream job' in my presence.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:37
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They make less money than the guy who does dishes or scrubs bilges on a merchant ship, and that guy only works 6-8 months a year. The deck gang makes 2+ times what a teacher does working 6-8 months a year to paint and do sailorly stuff with ropes and whatnot.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:43
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BigFactory posted:Which page is that? They're numbered. if you can't find the correct page in an eight page report then i'm not surprised you would completely cherry pick your data and do so incorrectly lol
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Feb 9, 2017 22:44
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Oracle posted:...they are always, always pitching in even if they're just there as a spectator. Without being asked. They spend their own money on school supplies, niceties for the class, treats, snacks, etc.... From a leftist perspective isn't the hideously problematic? Like everyone who becomes a teacher knows teachers endure this kind of thing if they want to keep their jobs, and still continue to sign up to perform this class-treasonous dog and pony show.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:46
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boner confessor posted:if you can't find the correct page in an eight page report then i'm not surprised you would completely cherry pick your data and do so incorrectly lol lmao
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Feb 9, 2017 22:46
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shovelbum posted:From a leftist perspective isn't the hideously problematic? Like everyone who becomes a teacher knows teachers endure this kind of thing if they want to keep their jobs, and still continue to sign up to perform this class-treasonous dog and pony show.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:48
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Oracle posted:Or you know, they care more about the kids they see and are entrusted with for 7 hours a day five days a week 180 days a year than they do about your class war and would rather they not go hungry or be unable to complete an assignment because they don't have a pencil. The class war and the kids not having food or pencils is kind of the same thing, and the best way to fix it is definitely not to act happy about making slave wages and being expected to serve as a backdoor welfare dispenser on top of it.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:49
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Zikan posted:lmao im wrong about the part time teachers btw that's not included
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Feb 9, 2017 22:49
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K-12 teachers don't get into the gig for the cushy working conditions and lucrative pay.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:50
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shovelbum posted:The class war and the kids not having food or pencils is kind of the same thing, and the best way to fix it is definitely not to act happy about making slave wages and being expected to serve as a backdoor welfare dispenser on top of it. And what exactly would you have them do? Its not like snacks and pencils are magically going to show up if they refuse to provide them to stick it to the man. (Our PTA does cover what we can, parents also supply quite a bit of it where possible, there is some money in the school budget for such so its not like teachers are the only ones providing all this stuff they just tend to pick up the slack). Which reminds me, I need to go to the store and get some more shelf stable snacks and see if pants are on sale as the emergency supply is out since we had a handful of homeless kids join up over winter break and our school does uniforms.
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Feb 9, 2017 22:59
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Oracle posted:And what exactly would you have them do? Its not like snacks and pencils are magically going to show up if they refuse to provide them to stick it to the man. I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:01
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shovelbum posted:I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does. no, it would just cause state licensing boards to loosen standards
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Feb 9, 2017 23:02
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shovelbum posted:I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does. you know that teachers have unions, right?
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Feb 9, 2017 23:06
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Cease to Hope posted:you know that teachers have unions, right? Yeah and they make professional wages and work strict hours in that handful of states.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:06
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My sister is an elementary school art teacher in TN (who I'm fairly certain voted for trump). I wonder if my parents are going to let her move back in when the reigns of education are handed back to the TN legislature and her job ceases to exist.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:07
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shovelbum posted:I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does. One positive thing about TFA is that effectively raised teacher salaries by offering extremely high-paying exit options from teaching. I work with a lot of HYPS students way smarter than the average directional state university (i.e. not the flagship) education major who took the offer to go work in an underserved communities for two years, then dipped to a professional degree or directly to a gig at McKinsey/Apple/JP Morgan.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:10
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on the left posted:One positive thing about TFA is that effectively raised teacher salaries by offering extremely high-paying exit options from teaching. I work with a lot of HYPS students way smarter than the average directional state university (i.e. not the flagship) education major who took the offer to go work in an underserved communities for two years, then dipped to a professional degree or directly to a gig at McKinsey/Apple/JP Morgan. This is literally the problem though, you get "smart" amateurs doing it for two years as poverty tourism or whatever instead of the professional teachers who didn't happen to major in CS or finance at a brand name school.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:11
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Cease to Hope posted:K-12 teachers don't get into the gig for the cushy working conditions and lucrative pay. You're right, I didn't get into it for either of those things, but that doesn't mean they don't matter. When I was in the classroom, I wasn't even looking for particularly cushy or lucrative! Just slightly better conditions and a salary that feels like I could meaningfully support my family. Not long after my kids were born I left working in a school. It was an exciting opportunity, sure, but the better working conditions and serious increase in salary made it a no-brainer. I'm a drat good teacher and it really sucks that the pay and working conditions in schools made it such that I really had no choice but to leave the classroom because it would significantly improve life for my family.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:13
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Speak posted:I'm a drat good teacher Did you major in brogramming or finance at HYPS??!?
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Feb 9, 2017 23:13
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shovelbum posted:Did you major in brogramming or finance at HYPS??!? So close! Elementary and Special Education for undergrad, Special Education and Reading for my Master's. 12 years in the classroom.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:16
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Speak posted:You're right, I didn't get into it for either of those things, but that doesn't mean they don't matter. I'm not saying teachers don't deserve better than they get. On the contrary. The point is that anyone who isn't willing to tolerate the poor working conditions and compensation already quit. Yay capitalism.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:17
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shovelbum posted:This is literally the problem though, you get "smart" amateurs doing it for two years as poverty tourism or whatever instead of the professional teachers who didn't happen to major in CS or finance at a brand name school. I don't really understand how these amateurs are different from new teachers from other schools though, if using experience as a metric of performance. If talking about finding talented teachers, you need to define what you mean by talent.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:17
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on the left posted:I don't really understand how these amateurs are different from new teachers from other schools though, if using experience as a metric of performance. I would guess that any non-retarded 30 year old is going to be better than the smartest 21-22 year old at any job. Having most of anyone in any job barely old enough to drink and staying for 2 years max is terrible. It is like a conscript army vs. a professional army. edit: I only went to a state flagship though so I'm half-retarded myself at best shovelbum fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 23:20
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shovelbum posted:I would guess that any non-retarded 30 year old is going to be better than the smartest 21-22 year old at any job. This is not true at all, a 21-22 year old from an elite school is going to work at a pace and intensity that will destroy an average 30 year old.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:27
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boner confessor posted:if you can't find the correct page in an eight page report then i'm not surprised you would completely cherry pick your data and do so incorrectly lol You referred me to the page with the chart about average hours worked, in a report about average working hours, and I think you failed to read the first page while you were at it.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:28
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BigFactory posted:You referred me to the page with the chart about average hours worked, in a report about average working hours, and I think you failed to read the first page while you were at it. there's two options here you're trying to pull me into some weird rhetorical trap instead of just making your point like a big boy you can't find a single well labeled chart in an eight page document neither one of these options makes me want to patiently explain why you are wrong fyi also lol that you were bitching about teachers not showing up for work early enough when later on there's a chart demonstrating that teachers by far work earlier hours than other professionals
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Feb 9, 2017 23:31
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shovelbum posted:From a leftist perspective isn't the hideously problematic? Like everyone who becomes a teacher knows teachers endure this kind of thing if they want to keep their jobs, and still continue to sign up to perform this class-treasonous dog and pony show. It's not class treason to believe kids deserve a good education from someone who cares.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:33
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You guys are spending too much time arguing with a guy who clearly sees no moral value in taking care of or educating children and has reduced the worth of entire population of young people to a dollar value. He clearly does not grasp that educators simultaneously feel an imperative to properly care for and educate children and need to be paid a fair wage to take care of themselves as well.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:33
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boner confessor posted:there's two options here What are you talking about?
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Feb 9, 2017 23:35
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BigFactory posted:What are you talking about? you can't make a simple citation probably the fault of the us education system
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Feb 9, 2017 23:37
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