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I believe the state of US education is...
Doing very well...
Could be better...
Horrendously hosed...
I have no idea because I only watch Fox News...
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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

BigFactory posted:

What are you talking about?

are you an eliza bot? gently caress off with this

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boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

BigFactory posted:

What are you talking about?

i'm hesitant to point out the chart i'm talking about (it's at the bottom of page 2 fyi) because i'm not sure if you're playing some bizarre game or if you sincerely can't find the chart i'm talking about, which is the only chart that talks about average hours worked per week, in a document which only has ten (10) charts total

the completely trivial nature of the task, and your refusal to put in the work, made me suspicious that you were playing at some strange argument

bag em and tag em
Nov 4, 2008

Zikan posted:

you can't make a simple citation

probably the fault of the us education system

If they had reduced funding to maximize society's investment he'd be a genius though.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

bag em and tag em posted:

You guys are spending too much time arguing with a guy who clearly sees no moral value in taking care of or educating children and has reduced the worth of entire population of young people to a dollar value. He clearly does not grasp that educators simultaneously feel an imperative to properly care for and educate children and need to be paid a fair wage to take care of themselves as well.

And I'm arguing with a guy who thinks that a 22 year old from Stanford with no specialized training is better than a 35 year old from UVA or Berkeley with 14 years on the job and 4-6 years of laser-focused training!

LunarShadow
Aug 15, 2013


shovelbum posted:

And I'm arguing with a guy who thinks that a 22 year old from Stanford with no specialized training is better than a 35 year old from UVA or Berkeley with 14 years on the job and 4-6 years of laser-focused training!

It is also the same person they are talking about.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

LunarShadow posted:

It is also the same person they are talking about.

Oh I thought they were talking about me.

bag em and tag em
Nov 4, 2008

shovelbum posted:

And I'm arguing with a guy who thinks that a 22 year old from Stanford with no specialized training is better than a 35 year old from UVA or Berkeley with 14 years on the job and 4-6 years of laser-focused training!

Who is arguing that experienced, highly trained teachers aren't valuable?

NM: I see where the mixup occurred.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

shovelbum posted:

I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does.

We already have a massive teacher shortage. It is not changing anything. It's a systematic problem because until everyone in the world stops assuming we are lazy and don't know what we are doing (and that they can do it better than us), it won't change.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

shovelbum posted:

And I'm arguing with a guy who thinks that a 22 year old from Stanford with no specialized training is better than a 35 year old from UVA or Berkeley with 14 years on the job and 4-6 years of laser-focused training!

There are much fewer of the former than the latter. Also a thought exercise, for the same salary, do you think said teacher is going to want to teach in a chill, fratty suburban high school, or a school where the teacher has a good chance of being stabbed?

Keep in mind that the teacher will likely need to send their kids to the same school district they teach at.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

Quidthulhu posted:

We already have a massive teacher shortage. It is not changing anything. It's a systematic problem because until everyone in the world stops assuming we are lazy and don't know what we are doing (and that they can do it better than us), it won't change.

What happens at 0 teachers though? There's a "shortage" compared to the hideous oversaturation of workers for jobs in say, manufacturing, but not enough of one that there are 600 students or 6000 students or 60,000 students in a classroom.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

I mean what happens at zero custodial staff across the entire country? You're never going to get to zero teachers. Yes if every single teacher in the country struck at the same time we'd probably get poo poo done but that's not going to happen.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

silence_kit posted:

Please present this data, if you think that the survey I linked is somehow suspect. IMO, you haven't really presented a good case for why the ~40 hours a week number in the survey is wrong.

In any case, you have backed off from your original assertion that the average teacher is constantly pulling 60 hour work weeks.

I did!

Quidthulhu posted:

Furthermore, here is some data compiled by Scholastic and the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation in 2012 which found that, on average, teachers work 10 hours and 40 minutes every day:

https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf

Data on page 15, methodology at the beginning.

bag em and tag em
Nov 4, 2008

shovelbum posted:

What happens at 0 teachers though? There's a "shortage" compared to the hideous oversaturation of workers for jobs in say, manufacturing, but not enough of one that there are 600 students or 6000 students or 60,000 students in a classroom.

How do you think teachers will all be able to afford just going "okay guys, we're not going to work for awhile."

Not saying strikes are impossible, just that typicalls strikes do not endear teachers to the public and that teachers barely making enough as it is can hardly all afford to just stop getting those checks until the country collectively decides to give them more.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

And also that we have no unifying governing agency because all of our unions are state by state and all of our standards are state by state etc. etc. etc.

bag em and tag em
Nov 4, 2008
And it doesnt account for teachers not wanting to strike because they don't want their students to suffer in the meanwhile.

Hawkperson
Jun 20, 2003

bag em and tag em posted:

And it doesnt account for teachers not wanting to strike because they don't want their students to suffer in the meanwhile.

Yeah like look it's a compounding problem. Those of us who teach in high poverty areas, our kids have been taught that they are the lowest priority over and over and over again. It takes a lot to get us to strike over poo poo because we can't justify it unless our unfair treatment is so severe it is hurting the kids (through us being stressed out and unable to support them).

Hawkperson
Jun 20, 2003

Whoever said teaching is less about hours and more about intensity is right. You have to be "on" full time when you are teaching. You cannot get bored and dick around on the forums or YouTube. You cannot go hide in the bathroom and play with your phone when you are tired, even for 5 minutes. If you are not keeping an eye on poo poo, even during a test or worksheet time, 1) kids are not learning as effectively (teachers who wander the classroom have more successful students) and 2) some kid is going to bully, harm, or otherwise gently caress something up. Always in the back of your head is the understanding that if a kid up and died in your classroom, that is your rear end on the line. It's not the same as working in an office. It's not even the same as being a manager. At least your charges are adults. That you can fire if they are literally putting others in danger.

"Just send disruptive kids out of the room." No. For a million reasons, but first and foremost because sending them out denies them their education. But also because we tend to do that to kids of color a lot more than the other kids. And because our job is to teach ALL our students, even if some are not interested in learning. Also because it undermines our authority in the classroom when we have to make someone else solve our problems. So instead we learn to be disciplinarians while also not letting discipline be the only thing we do. You know, so we can teach.

Before I was a teacher, I would get like 5 hours of sleep at night and then go work or school or whatever. And I could handle it just like many of you likely handle your jobs with no sleep. If I don't go to bed on time as a teacher, it's loving better for me to just not show up. (If you're not a teacher you don't get how ridiculous that is. It's an order of magnitude more work to take a sick day than to just suck it up and teach.) That's how much intensity and focus being a good teacher takes.

JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich

Hawkgirl posted:

"Just send disruptive kids out of the room." No. For a million reasons, but first and foremost because sending them out denies them their education. But also because we tend to do that to kids of color a lot more than the other kids. And because our job is to teach ALL our students, even if some are not interested in learning. Also because it undermines our authority in the classroom when we have to make someone else solve our problems. So instead we learn to be disciplinarians while also not letting discipline be the only thing we do. You know, so we can teach.

And because some kids will quickly realize the only thing they need to do to avoid work is to be disruptive and get sent out. Getting kicked out of class is only a punishment if you enjoy being in the class in the first place, and those don't tend to be the kids with behavior problems.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
I would like to say that the idea of the average job being watching cat pictures in your cube and talking about Game of Thrones around the water cooler is true for only the most useless of office jobs again.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe
I can't decide if the teachers here are getting trolled or if this thread highlights everything that's wrong with education in this country. Or both.

I don't know which idea is more laughable - that the average teacher only works 40 hours a week, or the thought that fresh graduates from elite colleges are going to run experienced teachers into the ground with their "intensity," especially when thrown into high poverty schools the likes of which they have probably never even contemplated.

litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 10, 2017

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

shovelbum posted:

I would like to say that the idea of the average job being watching cat pictures in your cube and talking about Game of Thrones around the water cooler is true for only the most useless of office jobs again.

Which we are all well aware of, thank you. You have spectacularly misunderstood the point. The fact that you can go to the water cooler or take a moment to look at cat pictures or strike up a conversation about Game of Thrones, though - that's the difference.

Hawkperson
Jun 20, 2003

shovelbum posted:

I would like to say that the idea of the average job being watching cat pictures in your cube and talking about Game of Thrones around the water cooler is true for only the most useless of office jobs again.

That's not what I said. Office work is work; I don't think teaching is the only "real" job or some bullshit. But I also doubt you're chained to your desk. Can you not go to the bathroom or just push out your chair and take a 30 second mental break whenever you need to?

Oxphocker
Aug 17, 2005

PLEASE DO NOT BACKSEAT MODERATE
I have a masters plus 45 and soon I'll have an Ed.S. in educational administration. Now I've been one of the luckier ones when it comes to college costs:

Undergrad: Northern Michigan University, B.S. Social Studies Education/History Education - Approximately $70k spent ($24k loans at graduation)
MI Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500
IL Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500
Additional Cert: Northern IL University, Driver's Ed - $7500
NM Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $200
Graduate: University of Texas Arlington, M.Ed Educational Leadership and Policy Studies - Approximately $10k (loans just paid off about a year ago)
MN Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500
MN Additional Coursework to Match License Requirements - Approximately $700
Graduate: Saint Mary's University, Ed.S Educational Leadership (Principal and Superintendent) - Approximately $20k (still in class right now)
MN Admin Licensure Fees - Approximately $1k (have yet to do)

Total - Approximately $111k

So far for teaching salary:
3 years NM 7th grade - $28k, 29k, 31k
.5 year MN 8th grade - $28k
3 years part time MN 7-12 charter - $10k, 21k, 21k
3 years part time MN 7-12 charter admin - $45k, 30k 30k

Total - Approximately 273k over 6.5 years equals 42k a year average for having almost short of a doctorate at this point.
Subtracting educational investment equals 162k over 6.5 years, which is $25k a year average after investment...

For all of that I work:
7:45-3:45 is my contract time = 8hrs
Rarely do I get out of there before 5 most days...so let's round to 9.5 hrs because often times I get there before 7:45 due to unforeseen emergencies. (Like this morning at 6:15 when the bus was blowing cold air in below zero conditions and I went over there two blocks away in my pajamas to get a vehicle key for the driver)

That's 47.5 hrs per week. Plus at least 3 hours minimum per week of other meetings like the board meetings, parent meetings, etc...so let's round to 50 for the sake of argument.

Then I have grad work which is about 3 hours per week plus a 12 hour day in class every other Sat...so let's say that averages to 9 hours per week...up to 59 now...

Then I have prep work for class which is usually from noon to 10pm for me on Sunday's (prepping three classes) so that's 10 hours per week...up to 69 now...

I'm also on our teaching co-op board so add an hour per week of work, 70. I'm also on the city council to help represent the school so at least 1-3 hours per week for that, up to 73 hours.

So that's 73 hours per week times 36 weeks of school for 2628 hours. Plus I work through the summer for at least 6 hours a day for at least 9 weeks so that adds, 270 hours for a total of 2898 hours in the year.

Take my current salary of $51k and divided out that's $17.60 per hour for drat near having a doctorate. Plus the stress, no life, constantly on the go, etc... Anyone who says I'm not working hard enough gently caress themselves with a rusty spork. Oh that also doesn't include all the time I put in for free for events, tech support for the school, and 50% of an admin job that I do for no additional pay on my contract (admin is supposed to be $60k, I only get $30k). Yeah....I'm super loving lazy...

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

litany of gulps posted:

I don't know which idea is more laughable - that the average teacher only works 40 hours a week, or the thought that fresh graduates from elite colleges are going to run experienced teachers into the ground with their "intensity," especially when thrown into high poverty schools the likes of which they have probably never even contemplated.

Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?"

Blue Raider
Sep 2, 2006

My parents were teachers, and its a fool's racket. Teaching loving sucks. gently caress the kids; You do you. Life is too loving short.

E: Even though my father did pull in about 70k a year as a public school teaching doctorate. It still sucked.

Hawkperson
Jun 20, 2003

on the left posted:

Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?"

That seems irrelevant? I don't see what about his post made you say that.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

on the left posted:

Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?"

Man, I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm an English teacher, so I suppose we'll start with connotation.

How do you define a "failing school," my friend? What's a "nice school"?

How do you measure and determine who's a "great teacher"?

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

on the left posted:

Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?"

Yeah, just like how all the best doctors go on to just treat sprained wrists and headcolds because they could do anything with their talents.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe
Now, hang on, people. Obviously his claim is a non-sequitur. It was clearly a ridiculous statement, completely unsupported by evidence other than his own questionable application of supposed mathematics and probability. It plainly didn't make any sense to observers.

However, even the truly insane have their own internal logic. The goal here is analysis - understanding the highly personal and bizarre thought process of this specimen's brain. How was this absurd statement birthed? What was the conception? What does it really mean? What can we learn from it? We must draw this out through questioning.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe
I suspect our object of study has no answers to any questions. Maybe we should proceed with the analysis anyway.

I used the term "high poverty" school in regards to TFA. TFA, as I am sure that most of us are well aware, require you to work in specific classifications of schools in order to gain the tuition forgiveness benefits that are so essential to these contracts.

Our specimen translated this to "failing" schools. How do we interpret this adjustment of the language? What are the implications of attempting to replace “high poverty” with “failing”? What does that tell us?

Further, in our case study, we see the claim that "great teachers" would instead prefer to work in "nice" schools. The implication here is that the "nice" schools are the opposite of the "failing" schools. What does the term "nice" really mean in the context of this claim, based on our understanding of what the claimant judges as a "failing" school?

I think we must pin down the meaning of these terms before we can proceed into a discussion of what makes a “great teacher” and what sort of school this kind of teacher would prefer to work in.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

litany of gulps posted:

Now, hang on, people. Obviously his claim is a non-sequitur. It was clearly a ridiculous statement, completely unsupported by evidence other than his own questionable application of supposed mathematics and probability. It plainly didn't make any sense to observers.

However, even the truly insane have their own internal logic. The goal here is analysis - understanding the highly personal and bizarre thought process of this specimen's brain. How was this absurd statement birthed? What was the conception? What does it really mean? What can we learn from it? We must draw this out through questioning.

on the left is just throwing trolls at the thread to see what sticks

he tried "gently caress the special ed kids", "those who can, do" and now "if you work in a bad school it's your fault"

JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich
There's a proxy fight for the Devos nomination in the Los Angeles school board race.

The current school board president is Steve Zimmer, a TFA guy who taught for 17 years. He's supported by the teacher's union and is generally popular. He's got pretty reasonable views on charters, he doesn't think they're a panacea, but he's not trying to close them all down either. LAUSD has a process where parents and teachers can make their school a district charter, meaning they'll have more local control, but keeping a lot of district structures in place and keeping teachers in their union, which is some brilliant co-opting if you ask me.

The challenger, Nick Melvoin, who's been able to run a significant amount of negative advertising (I saw one ad on MSNBC), is also a TFA guy, who taught for two years in Watts and then got fired because there were budget cuts and he had low seniority, and then went to law school and nonprofit world. He's strongly pro-charters and (maybe?) vouchers. He's got wacky ideas about letting any student go to any school in the district and dealing with the transportation nightmare with uber for kids. http://www.hopskipdrive.com/

The TFA vs TFA angle is more interesting because Zimmer's last election saw Michelle Rhee (another TFA alum) give half a million dollars to his pro-charter opponent, who he beat handily. I think the Devos backlash is going to sail him to victory, but I'm not exactly batting 1000 in the political prediction market recently so I'm still worried.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

boner confessor posted:

on the left is just throwing trolls at the thread to see what sticks

he tried "gently caress the special ed kids", "those who can, do" and now "if you work in a bad school it's your fault"

How do you function in society if you can't realize that people can sincerely hold beliefs that are different from your own?

It's not like my beliefs are really fringe, given that we just elected a president who is going to put a lot of what i'm suggesting into real policy.


litany of gulps posted:

Man, I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm an English teacher, so I suppose we'll start with connotation.

How do you define a "failing school," my friend? What's a "nice school"?

How do you measure and determine who's a "great teacher"?

For some objective measures of school quality, good schools have high graduation rates, high median SAT scores, and failing schools have high dropout rates, many students not performing at grade level, and lots of crime.

Subjectively, I think we all know what people mean when they ask "are the schools good?". Generally this is a question that can tell you how likely your children are to be a victim of violent crime while under state care.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

boner confessor posted:

on the left is just throwing trolls at the thread to see what sticks

he tried "gently caress the special ed kids", "those who can, do" and now "if you work in a bad school it's your fault"

Look at what is happening to this thread. Low-end trolls that can't even respond to the slightest bit of questioning are derailing it from any potentially productive discussion.

I like to think of trolls as educational tools. We have a weak one here, who can't even follow up their own arguments on the most superficial level. Sadly, that limits what we can learn from them. Still, it is admittedly rare to have a good troll. It's a skill and art that few can master. This one is clearly a factory defect or somehow deficient.

Point being, though - telling someone making these sorts of arguments that they aren't making sense or mocking their obvious lack of intellect is non productive. Question them and draw out the racism or anti-intellectualism or propaganda that fuels their arguments, then pick apart the source by pointing out what it truly represents. The goal isn't to convert their thinking, but rather to better understand the kind of person that thinks in these ways. Or, in some cases, to appeal to a broader audience that is observing the exchange.

Even the limp-dick trolls infesting this thread can be used as practice, if they aren't so pathetic that they retreat entirely. The crop I'm seeing here is particularly pathetic, however, so I wouldn't put it beyond them to tuck their limpness between their legs and vanish.

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

on the left posted:

For some objective measures of school quality, good schools have high graduation rates, high median SAT scores, and failing schools have high dropout rates, many students not performing at grade level, and lots of crime.

Subjectively, I think we all know what people mean when they ask "are the schools good?". Generally this is a question that can tell you how likely your children are to be a victim of violent crime while under state care.

Who is this "we" you speak of? What factors do you think influence graduation and dropout rates? What sort of test is the SAT and why do you think this is a relevant measure of the success of a school? What is the solution to a large number of students at a school not performing at grade level?

Do you think police presence and enforcement is the same at all schools? Do you think criminal activity is reported and enforced the same at all types of schools, or does it perhaps mirror broader social issues like selective enforcement in the war on drugs?

Do you think a child at a "nice" school is less likely to be bullied than a child at a "failing" school?

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

litany of gulps posted:

Which we are all well aware of, thank you. You have spectacularly misunderstood the point. The fact that you can go to the water cooler or take a moment to look at cat pictures or strike up a conversation about Game of Thrones, though - that's the difference.

I think you misunderstand me, I was phone posting and probably unclear - there are plenty of jobs where you are required to spend school-day lengths of time with minimal breaks focusing on a high stakes task. A lot of these are skilled blue-collar jobs and the rhetoric of "hardest job on earth, can't even watch YouTube!" doesn't necessarily ring as true to the offshore crane operator as it does to the cube jockey.

edit:

litany of gulps posted:

Do you think police presence and enforcement is the same at all schools? Do you think criminal activity is reported and enforced the same at all types of schools, or does it perhaps mirror broader social issues like selective enforcement in the war on drugs?

Jesus this school to prison pipeline poo poo is an epidemic now, it's even getting into the nice (white) schools. Every fight gets the cops involved these days.

on the left
Nov 2, 2013
I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

litany of gulps posted:

What factors do you think influence graduation and dropout rates? What sort of test is the SAT and why do you think this is a relevant measure of the success of a school? What is the solution to a large number of students at a school not performing at grade level?

IQ is 80% of the answer to the first two questions, and explains why there's not much that can be done about the third.

litany of gulps posted:

Do you think police presence and enforcement is the same at all schools? Do you think criminal activity is reported and enforced the same at all types of schools, or does it perhaps mirror broader social issues like selective enforcement in the war on drugs?

Police presence is not the same at all schools, it will be where there is the most pressing need to address crime.


litany of gulps posted:

Look at what is happening to this thread. Low-end trolls that can't even respond to the slightest bit of questioning are derailing it from any potentially productive discussion.

I like to think of trolls as educational tools. We have a weak one here, who can't even follow up their own arguments on the most superficial level. Sadly, that limits what we can learn from them. Still, it is admittedly rare to have a good troll. It's a skill and art that few can master. This one is clearly a factory defect or somehow deficient.

Point being, though - telling someone making these sorts of arguments that they aren't making sense or mocking their obvious lack of intellect is non productive. Question them and draw out the racism or anti-intellectualism or propaganda that fuels their arguments, then pick apart the source by pointing out what it truly represents. The goal isn't to convert their thinking, but rather to better understand the kind of person that thinks in these ways. Or, in some cases, to appeal to a broader audience that is observing the exchange.

Even the limp-dick trolls infesting this thread can be used as practice, if they aren't so pathetic that they retreat entirely. The crop I'm seeing here is particularly pathetic, however, so I wouldn't put it beyond them to tuck their limpness between their legs and vanish.


*tips fedora*

shovelbum posted:

Jesus this school to prison pipeline poo poo is an epidemic now, it's even getting into the nice (white) schools. Every fight gets the cops involved these days.

If my kids is attacked, I want the other kid going to prison. If police won't do anything to children, I will teach my child to take things into his/her own own hands to ensure they are never attacked again by that person.

Brainiac Five
Mar 28, 2016

by FactsAreUseless

on the left posted:

IQ is 80% of the answer to the first two questions, and explains why there's not much that can be done about the third.

If my kids is attacked, I want the other kid going to prison. If police won't do anything to children, I will teach my child to take things into his/her own own hands to ensure they are never attacked again by that person.

So what's the other 20%?

litany of gulps
Jun 11, 2001

Fun Shoe

shovelbum posted:

I think you misunderstand me, I was phone posting and probably unclear - there are plenty of jobs where you are required to spend school-day lengths of time with minimal breaks focusing on a high stakes task. A lot of these are skilled blue-collar jobs and the rhetoric of "hardest job on earth, can't even watch YouTube!" doesn't necessarily ring as true to the offshore crane operator as it does to the cube jockey.

This is a fair point. The take-away from this point though, is that perhaps the skilled blue-collar worker (often union) and the teacher aren't at all in opposition. These are hard jobs that deserve compensation, but they're both under the same attacks from the same groups. So why engage in a dick-waving contest about who has it worse off? Unite against the systemic issues attempting to destroy the credibility and compensation of both groups.

on the left posted:

*FARTTTTTTTT*

If my kids is attacked, I want the other kid going to prison. If police won't do anything to children, I will teach my child to take things into his/her own own hands to ensure they are never attacked again by that person.

See, this is the end goal of questioning.

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shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

litany of gulps posted:

This is a fair point. The take-away from this point though, is that perhaps the skilled blue-collar worker (often union) and the teacher aren't at all in opposition. These are hard jobs that deserve compensation, but they're both under the same attacks from the same groups. So why engage in a dick-waving contest about who has it worse off? Unite against the systemic issues attempting to destroy the credibility and compensation of both groups.

Yeah exactly this, unfortunately the non-union trades swing pretty hard right, and there are a lot of Trump voters even in the trade unions. I think that when a leftist movement has become so isolated to the white-collar classes that it loses even the support of unionized workers, there is a lot of trouble afoot!

on the left posted:

If my kids is attacked, I want the other kid going to prison. If police won't do anything to children, I will teach my child to take things into his/her own own hands to ensure they are never attacked again by that person.

You want your kid doing 5 years for getting in a schoolyard scuffle and throwing a few bare fists? This cuts both ways.

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