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icantfindaname posted:so what actually is the solition to fixing bad public schools full of poor black people? i'm guessing the answer is there is none, without somehow fixing the poverty first right? may as well ask again in a new thread One really good way is actually forced integration: There's several cases people have studied, and it even benefits all students. Some more reading: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/transcript http://www.syracuse.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/syracuse_professor_desegregation_is_the_best_way_to_improve_our_schools_commenta.html You'll hear unholy hell from pearl-clutching closet racists (liberal, so ten degrees to the right when it affects them personally), but it would benefit all students in a lot of ways, and would be a great for combating racism in the long run. Poverty is devastating to children's learning too, so any anti-poverty programs are going to do a lot of help as well. Integration and anti-poverty programs would do amazing things.
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Feb 9, 2017 12:47
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| # ¿ May 2, 2024 08:07 |
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litany of gulps posted:Anyone that knows what it actually entails respects the program. Why do you think a class like this gets dismissed by the ignorant? What are they really saying? This isn't at all off-topic. I think because of our individualism in the US and because the variety of narratives, schools (and the teachers at them) suffering from external factors are blamed. It's much easier to find a single thing and call that the problem, rather than to actually address the systemic issues all connected to it. There's a reason when someone asked "how do we fix effectively segregated poor schools that are disproportionately black people" with "fix poverty,"--it has a massive effect, yet you'll never hear it on the table of a discussion of fixing education by policy makers or the media. They'll say, yeah, these folks are poor, but they won't talk about that problem as if it can be fixed--it's teachers and educator's fault for not fixing it, or dang, it's too bad their poor, how terrible, nothing we can do though. And so you end up with poo poo policies like for-profit charter schools and the undermining of unions. The people doing it may actually believe it's better. Capitalists like, say, Bill Gates or Betsy DeVos who are trying to reform education can't possibly grasp the issue fully, because if they did they'd have to admit their worldview was flawed and they were responsible for so many problems in education (and more generally). Next, while OtL isn't debating in good faith (he might believe his horrid poo poo, but he's not debating), the idea that there's some inherent "intelligence" quality is common, and most people know on some level anyone can learn things, but the internalized narrative is people are "good" or "bad" at a subject, and that's an immutable quality. Jo Boaler at Stanford has a short class (used to be online for free, but I can't find it) about how students often felt like they were either "good" at math or "bad" at it, and how both ideas destroyed their ability to get better at math. There's some genetic component to intelligence, but how good someone gets at math is far outweighed by how they practice it, and it's actually important for students to believe they can get better at something before they actually do get better at it (the article goes into more depth). This is true not just for math, but pretty much everything that can be learned. shovelbum posted:Yeah I guess you could use the same model in high school, though part of me thinks the goal of high school should be to create a standardized citizen of some kind so that in an emergency they're a known quantity. The other thing people need to consider is this: What are schools and teachers responsible for? It seems like, as the years go on, they're responsible for everything. Not just math, literacy, science, art, music, and history, but life skills, sex ed, economics, technology, cooking, accounting. Schools then also get told to teach character traits like responsibility, respect, grit, then also add social skills, and add this and add that. People get mad they were taught math in school, but not specifically taught how to balance a budget. Partially, this is a problem of "schools" and the "real world" being separate domains in most peoples mind, and the fact that for a variety of reasons, people are unable to apply what they learned in the classroom to life. But what domains are the responsibilities of parents and guardians? If people aren't able to apply what they learn in classrooms to the world, is keeping kids boxed up in tiny rooms the best way to teach them? (Probably not). If we are going to also teach life skills, do we take away other courses? Do we add on hours to the school day? (Most places go with: Add the burden on teachers, then don't give them any additional time or resources to do so; yell 'integrate it!' while farting off towards the sunset). Part of the problem with education is that it's modeled off a 100-year old industrial model designed to make workers that were disciplined, obeyed authority, and were smart, but not too smart. Gains have been made in spite of this model, I think, but not because of it. For historical reasons, we group kids by age as if that's the thing most important, and keep them isolated from the rest of the world. I don't think that's the best way to do things, and I think there's a lot we know about brains and learning that would support other models, but I also think I've rambled enough here. If anyone wants me to expand on any of this poo poo or clarify a point, let me know. I could go on for a long time about a lot of stuff.
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Feb 10, 2017 08:24
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like if someone wanted to draw up a plan where a kid got a normal education and then IN ADDITION to that also got some practical job training then maybe that would be cool. But it really sucks how many people, even fairly liberal people on D&D feel like the solution to the problem with universal education is to make it less universal. One of the problems a lot of students have that kills school for them is they ask "What's the point of this? When am I ever going to use this?" A lot of schools have cut everything but core to the bone, and act like kids just need math, reading, and writing. I don't think the people advocating for trade school programs and shop electives are saying that should take the place of the core of education; instead, those programs can allow students to see the purpose of education. Someone mentioned how one culinary program was integrating advanced chemistry. Any program can be integrated with the core subjects, and it'll actually benefit the core subjects because students will see the purpose of what they're learning. Learning about rectangular prisms in math might seem useless, but if the kid needs to use volume formulas in their woodshop project, all of a sudden it makes sense, and the purpose leads to more effort leads to better results. A lot of elementary schools have cut science, but one of the teachers I work with used to work in a STEM school where they used science in class to show why students needed to be able to read, do math, and write, and by integrating the subjects, students did better in all the core subjects. Another example was a Mexican-American studies program at a high school in Arizona. The optional class was able to discuss the history of indigenous people, Mexican culture, and tie it to historical and modern social justice (examining, for example, the founding fathers from a critical lens). The program was wildly successful, because it increased attendance of at-risk kids, boosted grades in other classes, and gave kids who didn't see the purpose of education a reason, and therefore, the motivation to grow and do better. The connection of education to the "real world" helps befit kids immensely, and so, if implemented properly, shop classes, culinary classes, etc. all would be a huge boon to schools. The case study of the Tuscon MAS program (and if you haven't seen Precious Knowledge, I would recommend it--preview here) also helps expose school reformers for the frauds they are. The program drastically increased grades, graduation rates, and college attendance--all things school reformers claimed they cared about--but the program was banned because a bunch of xenophobic state legislatures got scared kids might think for themselves or have scary ideas.
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Feb 11, 2017 02:14
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litany of gulps posted:Anyone seeing politics directly having an impact on their students? Yeah, I had some kids out because of that. A lot of students and parents are pretty terrified of the new administration. They're worried they or their family members might be deported, and that's true even for those who are here legally.
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Feb 18, 2017 18:51
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Oxphocker posted:So it's only been ten days since this thread went up and 70% of voters think education is horribly hosed... I think it's very interesting to see how people are responding to this. It always seems to be that people are outraged about schools, yet anything to actually help them is just being soft on teachers, teacher's unions, insert latest conservative target here.... I got curious on what opinions from the general population look like on how to improve education, and found this: (Source: Gallup)  
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Feb 19, 2017 03:09
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| # ¿ May 2, 2024 08:07 |
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Basically, all education's problems are blamed on teachers, even though they are only a single (obviously important) part in an extremely complex system. At the same time, most high level decisions about education are not made by those with any sort of expertise, and often those that know most about teaching have the least say in it. One of the big problems is that everyone has been to school and been a student, and so thinks they have some sort of special insight into the entire education system based on their single anecdotal experience. Many people are also completely unaware of changes to teaching practices or schools in the past decade, and know so little about teaching that they can't even conceive of why it would be difficult.
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May 3, 2017 02:38
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