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There's currently a Supreme Court case pending about special education and the definition of "equal treatment" and I pose the question, which form of equal protection should we use in cases of failing schools, special education, and similar expensive problems, equality of opportunity (funding) or equality of outcome? To me, it seems moronic that we spend 70k/per student per year on special ed kids to make everyone feel better. Any rational school funding scheme should ideally fund every student equally well (accounting for cost of living diffs) and let the chips fall where they may.
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Feb 9, 2017 19:56
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boner confessor posted:ah good, i wondered when someone would start calling for eugenic action against the speds Not wanting to throw away inordinate amounts of money on special education is not eugenics at all. Society should absolutely consider the costs and benefits of special education policy
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Feb 9, 2017 20:07
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Hunt11 posted:So should we also bar kids from disadvantaged homes as they require more resources to teach then a peer from a more stable family? This is an argument to fix those problems through the social welfare system, not to inefficiently spend education dollars hoping to set up some sort of backdoor welfare system. If education is designed as a wealth redistribution scheme, don't be surprised when conservatives have no problem eviscerating the education system. boner confessor posted:maybe let's not argue with the guy calling for locking the autistic away in closets as if he's completely sincere and not just dumping low effort trolls into the thread lol at the false consensus of "How could anyone seriously be against infinite money being spent on special ed?"
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Feb 9, 2017 20:23
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Little Mac posted:Did you have that red title before you posted this? If not, you earned it here. Explain the societal benefit of dropping 70k/year on special ed for a single student. I'm assuming we will never see any of that money back in the form of income taxes.
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Feb 9, 2017 20:32
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Panzeh posted:If you really believe our public education system should be survival of the fittest, equal money doesn't make sense. You should probably drop out the bottom 50% of each class at each grade level and spend the money on whoevers left. They are probably the 'best' investments. It's odd that the demands for equal funding only go in one direction, towards the weakest and most marginalized groups. Almost as if demands for equality are being used to advance a true agenda that would be deeply unpopular if revealed in the current political climate.
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Feb 9, 2017 21:17
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shovelbum posted:I would say that people who are already in a position to have a college degree (most a masters) should refuse to work for those wages, and should not pursue those opportunities as students. A massive teacher shortage would kind of force the issue more than grinning and bearing it does. One positive thing about TFA is that effectively raised teacher salaries by offering extremely high-paying exit options from teaching. I work with a lot of HYPS students way smarter than the average directional state university (i.e. not the flagship) education major who took the offer to go work in an underserved communities for two years, then dipped to a professional degree or directly to a gig at McKinsey/Apple/JP Morgan.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:10
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shovelbum posted:This is literally the problem though, you get "smart" amateurs doing it for two years as poverty tourism or whatever instead of the professional teachers who didn't happen to major in CS or finance at a brand name school. I don't really understand how these amateurs are different from new teachers from other schools though, if using experience as a metric of performance. If talking about finding talented teachers, you need to define what you mean by talent.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:17
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shovelbum posted:I would guess that any non-retarded 30 year old is going to be better than the smartest 21-22 year old at any job. This is not true at all, a 21-22 year old from an elite school is going to work at a pace and intensity that will destroy an average 30 year old.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:27
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shovelbum posted:And I'm arguing with a guy who thinks that a 22 year old from Stanford with no specialized training is better than a 35 year old from UVA or Berkeley with 14 years on the job and 4-6 years of laser-focused training! There are much fewer of the former than the latter. Also a thought exercise, for the same salary, do you think said teacher is going to want to teach in a chill, fratty suburban high school, or a school where the teacher has a good chance of being stabbed? Keep in mind that the teacher will likely need to send their kids to the same school district they teach at.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:02
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litany of gulps posted:I don't know which idea is more laughable - that the average teacher only works 40 hours a week, or the thought that fresh graduates from elite colleges are going to run experienced teachers into the ground with their "intensity," especially when thrown into high poverty schools the likes of which they have probably never even contemplated. Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?"
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Feb 10, 2017 02:05
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boner confessor posted:on the left is just throwing trolls at the thread to see what sticks How do you function in society if you can't realize that people can sincerely hold beliefs that are different from your own? It's not like my beliefs are really fringe, given that we just elected a president who is going to put a lot of what i'm suggesting into real policy. litany of gulps posted:Man, I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm an English teacher, so I suppose we'll start with connotation. For some objective measures of school quality, good schools have high graduation rates, high median SAT scores, and failing schools have high dropout rates, many students not performing at grade level, and lots of crime. Subjectively, I think we all know what people mean when they ask "are the schools good?". Generally this is a question that can tell you how likely your children are to be a victim of violent crime while under state care.
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Feb 10, 2017 03:37
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litany of gulps posted:What factors do you think influence graduation and dropout rates? What sort of test is the SAT and why do you think this is a relevant measure of the success of a school? What is the solution to a large number of students at a school not performing at grade level? IQ is 80% of the answer to the first two questions, and explains why there's not much that can be done about the third. litany of gulps posted:Do you think police presence and enforcement is the same at all schools? Do you think criminal activity is reported and enforced the same at all types of schools, or does it perhaps mirror broader social issues like selective enforcement in the war on drugs? Police presence is not the same at all schools, it will be where there is the most pressing need to address crime. litany of gulps posted:Look at what is happening to this thread. Low-end trolls that can't even respond to the slightest bit of questioning are derailing it from any potentially productive discussion. *tips fedora* shovelbum posted:Jesus this school to prison pipeline poo poo is an epidemic now, it's even getting into the nice (white) schools. Every fight gets the cops involved these days. If my kids is attacked, I want the other kid going to prison. If police won't do anything to children, I will teach my child to take things into his/her own own hands to ensure they are never attacked again by that person.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:09
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Hunt11 posted:Why are you still debating with him? He just tried to use Trump as a symbol of rational thought. Trump was better at seizing opportunity and gauging the nation than an army of high-priced Democratic consultants, he has a much better predictive model and is more rational than the mainline Dem party and people like you who are doubling down on things that cause you to lose.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:32
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litany of gulps posted:What are you even doing, you clown? The conversation isn't about your nonsense, weak trolling. Go elsewhere. Trump's predictive model predicted his loss, which happened but for a technicality. Doubling down is a buzzword owned by KFC, I hope you are paying royalties. It's a sandwich made of chickens, you moron. The adults are talking. Go. lol I guess I can't compete with the professional accomplishments or intellectual horsepower of a high-school english teacher People like you are why I suppport the dismantling of the public education system
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Feb 10, 2017 04:39
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Quidthulhu posted:Ah, there it is, the namecalling that comes with having no actual points to substantiate your argument but a deeply rooted and non-truthful bias. If it's a nontruthful bias, surely my strategy of keeping my children out of dangerous schools will backfire spectacularly and result in self-pwn. The truth is that the reason why people fight so hard against education positions like mine with forced integration and other similar strategies is that they acknowledge the demographic realities of school performance and want to sufficiently socialize the risk and dysfunction so that it's less noticeable.
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Feb 10, 2017 04:47
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