US Education 2017: Countdown to DeVos Destroying Public Education

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BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

-"At any hour during the 8-hour stretch between 2 p.m. and 10 p.m., 25 percent to 30 percent of teachers who did at least some work that day were working."

Most contract days end a little after 3PM, so we'll write off the first hour, but that's still an extra 7 hours in which teachers are putting in extra work, every day. Even if we take this at a generous baseline of "a teacher works an extra hour a day", that's now 2 hours over the average professional work day we discussed initially, and not including Saturday or Sunday. And there's a good chance that what this ACTUALLY means is "most teachers are working for this 7 hour stretch because you can pick an hour and 30% of them will be working." Someone who is more familiar with study language can refute me on that if I'm wrong.

That's saying that at any given hour between 2 and 10, 25-30% of teachers are working, not that that 30% is working 7 extra hours per day. Between 2 and 6 nearly 100% of other professions are working. Your average teacher puts in an hour or two of work at some point between 2 and 10 every day, but still works fewer hours per week than many other professions.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 19:13

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 14:27

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

We all start at 8, though, and most of the working world starts at 9.

Average teacher work day: 8-3, plus 1-2 hours a day = 8-9 hours a day
Average professional work day: 9-5, plus 1-2 hours a day = 9-10 hours a day

So again, this is in line with us having an hour shorter work day every day, but does not account for the 50% Sunday time, which AT A BASELINE would even it out to totally even. Pushing a narrative that "teachers work far less than working professionals" is untrue, and I would still wager that if we had some data with actual numbers attached rather than blanket "well they are working" you would find that teachers ARE working far more than the average working professional.

Or the other option is that every single teacher in the nation has weekly meetings where we come up with ways to fabricate how hard our lives are so we can...complain? I don't even know. Why would every teacher in the world say "it sucks that I work so many unpaid hours just to make my job be BASELINE FUNCTIONAL" if it weren't the case?

Most offices open at 8 but everyone's in at 7. 9 to 5's been a myth for a long time. And if you look at that study it showed that teachers work more than average on sunday (but not by a lot) and less than average on saturday (again, not by a lot), and still work fewer hours a week on average.

If you want to present some other data that refutes the Dep't of Labor report maybe that would help?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 21:34

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

everyone in my office works 10 to 6

Everyone in my office works 6:30-5? What line of business are you in?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 21:39

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

Sure, when you also present data showing that most working professionals work 7-5 every day!

Do you think that 2008 Department of Labor report is wrong? It shows teachers working less than other professionals.

But here's a gallop poll showing that half of full-time employed American who work a single job average 46 hours a week, which however you divvy it up - 7 to 5, 8 to 6, whatever.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/175286/hour-workweek-actually-longer-seven-hours.aspx

BigFactory fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Feb 9, 2017

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 21:42

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

Uh, it shows teachers working less than other professionals by 2-3 hours a week, as I have shown. It also has data with no numbers attached that creates a variable "any given hour", and that's fairly anecdotal? "Any given hour" would absolutely cover a teacher who says "I typically work another 2-3 hours every night grading," as someone like myself would say, as on "any given hour" for those 2-3 hours that teacher is indeed working.

So I don't think the data is WRONG but I think you are interpreting it in a completely misleading way in order to prove a point that teachers shouldn't be little whiny baby's because working professionals work FAR harder than them, which seems supported by your citation of longer work day hours without any data.

The data is derived from surveys conducted by the Department of Labor. That "any given hour" statistic isn't misleading. Maybe you're misunderstanding it. What do you teach?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 21:54

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

Is your question here implying that because I don't teach Statistics or Math or any other data related subject that clearly, as a lazy teacher, I couldn't possibly be able to comprehend the data correctly? I can't see any other reason why you would ask me my subject here.

And it is possible I am misunderstanding it because I said initially "correct me if I'm wrong, I might be misunderstanding this!" But from what you are saying, "on any given hour" would cover a teacher who works 45min a day and a teacher who works 3 hours a day and contribute to the findings in the same manner. Is that incorrect?

Yes, that sounds incorrect. It means that based on the data the survey recorded, that if you isolate any single hour between 2PM and 10PM, 25-30% of teachers surveyed reported that they worked during that hour.

BigFactory fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Feb 9, 2017

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 22:05

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Quidthulhu posted:

Someone is more than welcome to explain to me why I am misreading that statement, then, since you are correct that I do not teach statistics!

I don't have the survey in front of me, but I imagine that it had a question where it asked you to respond yes or no whether you worked between: 6AM and 7AM (yes) (no), 7AM and 8AM (yes) or (no), etc...

Between any one hour window from 2 to 10PM, 25-30% of teachers reported that they worked. So you might have responded to that question by checking off yes on each box from 7AM to 2PM, and then 3 other boxes in the evening. Right? And workers in other professions, on average, responded that they worked more hours in the day.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 22:13

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

i'm the guy who has a stick up his rear end about teachers reporting working less hours relative to other professionals in the time after students typically leave the school, look at me, look at me

Is that debate or discussion?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 22:18

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

is this?

anyway you're glossing over the fact that pretty much all teachers are on the job by 7am according to the thing you're pulling cites from so i'm guessing you didn't read it too hard yourself, champ. or you have a weird boner for proving teachers are lazy without actually digging through your cites to see if that's the truth lol

you're also completely ignoring, on the same page that lists avg. hours per week, that the averages includes medical/family leave as well as part time teachers (who by definition do not work 35 hours a week) so there's really no surprise that the average hours worked varies considerably by age (hmm why would younger teachers work less hours, i wonder...)

Point out what you're talking about.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 22:31

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

there's only one page that lists average hours per week, so you can't get lost

Which page is that? They're numbered.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 22:35

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

if you can't find the correct page in an eight page report then i'm not surprised you would completely cherry pick your data and do so incorrectly lol

You referred me to the page with the chart about average hours worked, in a report about average working hours, and I think you failed to read the first page while you were at it.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 23:28

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

boner confessor posted:

there's two options here

you're trying to pull me into some weird rhetorical trap instead of just making your point like a big boy

you can't find a single well labeled chart in an eight page document

neither one of these options makes me want to patiently explain why you are wrong fyi

also lol that you were bitching about teachers not showing up for work early enough when later on there's a chart demonstrating that teachers by far work earlier hours than other professionals

What are you talking about?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 23:35

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Huzanko posted:

Ah, so just typical olds and corps whining about "muh taxes" spurned more "accountability." So, in other words, another stupid loving Republican idea. Cool, thanks.

I'm not a teacher but I feel so bad for all of you who are. I hope you guys hold it together for the next [however long this loving orange monster is president].

Obama's education policy wasn't that different from Bush's, and might have been worse, so this might just be a bipartisan issue at this point.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2017 17:16

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Because if "voiding a degree" for nonpayment was a real thing it'd presumably take some sort of time. It's not gonna be like you don't pay the degree bill this week and they shut your degree off. Whatever standard of nonpayment that got you to the level they were revoking your degree would happen long after that really mattered that much. You'd still know all the stuff you learned and would have job history in the field.

Or you couldn't find a job in the field your degree prepared you for (or didn't prepare you for) and as a consequence you're unable to find a job that allows you to survive while encumbered by the debt you accrued while earning the degree. You give back your degree to the financial institution that owns it and go through bankruptcy proceedings to get out from under the debt. Same as you would with a car or a house. You had the use of the house or car while you were paying off your loans, but you didn't really own them. The bank still had title.

Star Man posted:

I think if it were possible to void your degree in the event that you needed to declare bankruptcy to discharge your loans, employers all over would find some way to cut your pay or terminate you or some other way to gently caress you over for not being able to repay student loans. God forbid if you were a doctor or lawyer and that happened.

I think we're talking about extreme situations where one would want to forfeit a degree to get out from the debt obligations, but I can think of some examples pretty easily. It's not like filing bankruptcy is something that people are dying to do. It's a last resort, usually, but it's a pretty important one to have. If the precondition is that you have to forfeit a degree, it might make sense in a lot of situations, especially if it's being unused or underused.

BigFactory fucked around with this message at 19:33 on May 1, 2017

# ¿ May 1, 2017 19:25

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Again, that still feels like it's falling into major edgelord "education is just a piece of paper MAN". Like yeah, there are times the paper matters, but there is an awful lot of times it doesn't. And you can't give back an education. Can you unvoid it later? can you void and unvoid it back and forth? Can I activate my degree while jobhunting then turn it off when I have a job? If I void my degree then decide to get a new degree am I allowed to test out of spanish class and have an unfair advantage on the second degree because I already learned spanish or do I have to retake language electives? What if I hold multiple degrees? What if I have a PHd but my masters gets voided? What if I become certified to be a nurse then get my nursing degree voided, will the school call the state to un certify me?

I think you're talking about all sorts of edge cases unrelated to the specific, but relatively profound scenario of someone who is saddled with onerous student debt who is unable to find employment in the field they trained in. Their degree is an albatross around their neck, not a benefit.

It's all pretty stupid, though, because when a bank forecloses on a house, they do it because a house has transferable value. A degree does not. In that situation it literally is just a piece of paper the bank is collecting. It's strictly punitive, but if the alternative is not being able to get debt relief under any circumstance, it's better than what we have now.

But to answer your question, if you're currently employed in a field where you are utilizing the college degree you earned, you probably wouldn't want to forfeit your degree just to have the ability to file for bankruptcy. It's a specific remedy to a specific problem.

BigFactory fucked around with this message at 19:53 on May 1, 2017

# ¿ May 1, 2017 19:50

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I think it's kinda the definition of edgelord edgy to claim that having learned something from school is the edge case compared to it just being a piece of paper MAN.

If someone had lost their degree and we did live in a world only the paper mattered then questions of them paying to regain the degree or getting a different degree at a different school later doesn't seem like edge cases at all.

I think you're missing the point.

# ¿ May 1, 2017 20:32

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Wouldn't it be different if we had a more robust junior college system in the us?

# ¿ May 8, 2017 01:36

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 14:27

BigFactory: Sep 17, 2002

Yeah, that's what I said.

# ¿ May 8, 2017 02:58

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