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on the left posted:Failing schools being heavily staffed by teachers in the top 10% of the talent distribution seems both mathematically impossible and improbable in the sense of "why wouldn't a great teacher prefer to work in a nice school?" Yeah, just like how all the best doctors go on to just treat sprained wrists and headcolds because they could do anything with their talents.
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Feb 10, 2017 02:22
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I'm always shocked at how strongly SA threads about education cling to "trade schools" as a panacea for education reform. Like yeah, it seems like a neat thing some specific school districts could have that could fit in their needs but it just seems so not like a general solution. It seems like the DeVos solution though: stop universal public education and just send kids to different schools that don't have the same standards for things like literacy and math or special ed or anything. Like the primary problems schools have are stuff like being underfunded, not being able to get the best teachers, having bad buildings, etc. Like it feels weird to treat the solution to that is to continue to underfund any of that and then just spend a whole second education system. One that requires even more specialized teachers and buildings and equipment. Unless the idea that it wouldn't even be "in addition to" but "instead of" and that certain towns would simply be deemed lost causes for traditional education. I also don't get what percent of the population is expected to go through these schools in these plans. Like if it's 1 in 10,000 kids or something that that will be a huge boon for that kid, but if we restructure all of society to make 1 in 4 kids plumbers or something that goes no where.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:41
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twodot posted:Much like advertising, the goal isn't really "student takes plumbing unit -> student becomes plumber", but rather to make these roles visible in their education as viable careers. If someone takes carpentry and their three friends are taking shop, electrics, and plumbing, and their all talking about their projects, then the goal has been achieved. If you are talking some added electives in shop or electronics or whatever, rad. Do that for sure. The place my stomach gets real sour is when a group of kids is being failed by their awful underfunded and poorly staffed school and people come up with the idea of "these kids aren't being provided what they need to reach the standards of basic education? I know! lets remove standards of education and I don't know, some guy can maybe come in and teach them plumming or something"
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Feb 10, 2017 20:50
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Babylon Astronaut posted:I get what you're saying. It's like the old Newt Gingrich plan of letting the kids be the janitors. No, an underfunded school shouldn't give up on teaching and instead train kids to sweep floors. But everyone is talking about postsecondary, so I don't think it fits. Like if someone wanted to draw up a plan where a kid got a normal education and then IN ADDITION to that also got some practical job training then maybe that would be cool. But it really sucks how many people, even fairly liberal people on D&D feel like the solution to the problem with universal education is to make it less universal.
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Feb 10, 2017 23:41
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BarbarianElephant posted:Perhaps for people who realize their degree is useless, they could have the degree voided and lose the debt. The same for people who didn't finish. You can't "void a degree", like it's fun to jerk off that education is just a worthless piece of paper and learning is for chumps or whatever but if you took the classes you can't untake them.
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May 1, 2017 17:46
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PT6A posted:Sure, you could void a degree. You can't make people unlearn what they've learned, but you can certainly make it so that they do not officially hold a degree. This is like saying you can't suspend a drivers' license because the person will still know how to drive a car. Voiding someone's degrees in the first few years of someone's career would be devastating. After that who even cares? Before my first job trying to get by with a voided degree would be a huge problem, but now? Who even cares. If someone called me up to tell my my degree was "voided" it would have near zero impact on my current life. "your degree gets your first job, your first job gets your second job" is a saying and it's true. After you have a work history your degree is less and less important every single year. As long as you muddle a couple years out with a degree it's gonna be a pretty abstract threat to anyone that isn't a doctor or something with a legal requirement for a degree.
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May 1, 2017 18:45
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PT6A posted:Yes, I agree. Because if "voiding a degree" for nonpayment was a real thing it'd presumably take some sort of time. It's not gonna be like you don't pay the degree bill this week and they shut your degree off. Whatever standard of nonpayment that got you to the level they were revoking your degree would happen long after that really mattered that much. You'd still know all the stuff you learned and would have job history in the field.
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May 1, 2017 19:15
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BigFactory posted:Or you couldn't find a job in the field your degree prepared you for (or didn't prepare you for) and as a consequence you're unable to find a job that allows you to survive while encumbered by the debt you accrued while earning the degree. You give back your degree to the financial institution that owns it and go through bankruptcy proceedings to get out from under the debt. Same as you would with a car or a house. You had the use of the house or car while you were paying off your loans, but you didn't really own them. The bank still had title. Again, that still feels like it's falling into major edgelord "education is just a piece of paper MAN". Like yeah, there are times the paper matters, but there is an awful lot of times it doesn't. And you can't give back an education. Can you unvoid it later? can you void and unvoid it back and forth? Can I activate my degree while jobhunting then turn it off when I have a job? If I void my degree then decide to get a new degree am I allowed to test out of spanish class and have an unfair advantage on the second degree because I already learned spanish or do I have to retake language electives? What if I hold multiple degrees? What if I have a PHd but my masters gets voided? What if I become certified to be a nurse then get my nursing degree voided, will the school call the state to un certify me? Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 19:41
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BigFactory posted:I think you're talking about all sorts of edge cases unrelated to the specific, but relatively profound scenario of someone who is saddled with onerous student debt who is unable to find employment in the field they trained in. Their degree is an albatross around their neck, not a benefit. I think it's kinda the definition of edgelord edgy to claim that having learned something from school is the edge case compared to it just being a piece of paper MAN. If someone had lost their degree and we did live in a world only the paper mattered then questions of them paying to regain the degree or getting a different degree at a different school later doesn't seem like edge cases at all.
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May 1, 2017 20:27
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BigFactory posted:I think you're missing the point. The point is that voiding a degree is really really dumb. You keep the education. And if you want to pretend paper is all that matters it opens millions of unanswerable questions about how a revocable degree would even be implemented.
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May 1, 2017 20:44
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Oxphocker posted:honestly people need to grow up a bit. as a grownup I generally think of work assigned at home as a red flag if it's more than a very very occasional thing at work. Like it happens and is unavoidable sometimes but it's not normal and shouldn't be normalized.
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May 2, 2017 02:28
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Teachers have really strong unions and probably the best nominal work hours of any profession. But then an expectation to do 50% or more of their work "on their own time" and to spend a ton of their own money on work. And it always feels like attitudes on homework by teachers is informed by teacher's own really weird work situation. Like if teaching somehow in the future settled on being an 8 hour a day and then go home job I bet attitudes on homework would quickly mirror that idea. Like we have the profession with the most acceptance of take home work deciding how much take home work is good.
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May 2, 2017 12:35
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Oxphocker posted:First off... gently caress you. You're exactly part of the problem when it comes to the education system right now. "omg, teachers have it sooo easy, lol" Get bent is what I say. Best nominal hours? Have you ever actually taught a class in your life? Imagine going the majority of the day where you can't even take a bathroom break because you can't leave the room or the kids alone. Imagine coming in early to prep and leaving late to grade and using your prep for meetings and whatever else you can do so you don't have to take it home until 10pm each night. Imagine a profession where you have to keep going back year after year for additional education just to keep your job and your work doesn't pay for the costs but you do out of your own pocket. Imagine having to buy all your supplies out of your own pocket because the district doesn't have the funds for it. Anyone who wants to say teaching in the US is a cush job can go suck a dick. The only teachers in the US that have it good are the ones in really well off public and private schools where they can actually afford poo poo. It pisses me off to no end, the number of people who have ZERO loving CLUE what it's actually like to teach day after day...dealing with whiney overmedicated, phone addicted, bitchy kids who are only looking for the path of least resistance and their loving clueless enabling parents who think they know what teachers are supposed to be doing when they've never taught a day in their life...but OH NO! I know MY kid! Bullshit...your kid acts completely differently around you and when you aren't there and I wish everyday I could just film them and show it to you like an episode of cops so you could see the actual reality. So again, gently caress you. Okay, this whole rant seems like you are just exploding then saying back the same thing I said. That teachers have the most off the clock work of any profession despite having relatively good on the clock hours.
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May 3, 2017 14:17
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