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Fozzy The Bear
Dec 11, 1999

Nothing much, watching the game, drinking a bud

JollyPubJerk posted:

Every major DotA tournament gets like 80+ different heroes actually picked during it. It isn't LoL

I've been watching all the ASL and it's sad that Tastosis have kind of lost their enthusiasm a bit. At least with Artosis I think he just doesn't know any of the current builds anymore so he has not much to talk about, and they're kind of sick of re-teaching starcraft to nooblings.

As long as the maps stay good there'll be enough falling asleep material for a while to come though

Hmm... I get the opposite feeling from watching ASL. A&T seem very excited that BW is back.

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JollyPubJerk
Nov 10, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Fozzy The Bear posted:

Hmm... I get the opposite feeling from watching ASL. A&T seem very excited that BW is back.

They are, but years ago they had this enthusiasm that e-sports is going to be a cool thing one day and now it's an established thing so that's gone. Just my opinion though. I wouldn't want anyone else leading the scene back into relevance.

Minera
Sep 26, 2007

All your friends and foes,
they thought they knew ya,
but look who's in your heart now.
That wasn't the impression I got watching ASL at all, it was almost tiring hearing the basics of Brood War and unit control and why it's so hard, but I'll put up with it cuz I know exactly why they gotta explain that. Hell if anything I'm pretty sure as long as they're together Tastosis could be enthusiastic about casting paint drying and have a good time.

LLCoolJD
Dec 8, 2007

Musk threatens the inorganic promotion of left-wing ideology that had been taking place on the platform

Block me for being an unironic DeSantis fan, too!
To me, they weren't unenthusiastic with their casting, although it was slightly mechanical and wistful for days gone past. They also seemed quite hungry for a wave of new talent in the Brood War scene. I think that these exhibition style matches aren't really exciting them now that the novelty is gone.

LLCoolJD fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 23, 2017

Kite Pride Worldwide
Apr 20, 2009


That DT at 1:00:10 :eyepop:

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



I think Stork got unlucky in getting build order hard countered in the first game, but he really shouldn't have lost all those probes to the DT. Even without that he was pretty far behind, though. His second game no excuses, his positioning and control in the first battle were flat out bad and he made a few other mistakes here and there. It makes me sad because Stork was possibly my favorite player

mariooncrack
Dec 27, 2008
Are they still using 1.16 for ASL?

LLCoolJD
Dec 8, 2007

Musk threatens the inorganic promotion of left-wing ideology that had been taking place on the platform

Block me for being an unironic DeSantis fan, too!

Elyv posted:

I think Stork got unlucky in getting build order hard countered in the first game, but he really shouldn't have lost all those probes to the DT. Even without that he was pretty far behind, though. His second game no excuses, his positioning and control in the first battle were flat out bad and he made a few other mistakes here and there. It makes me sad because Stork was possibly my favorite player

Stork was always a very talented Protoss who slipped up in big matches. I know he won an OSL but he was Bisu, if Bisu couldn't close.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



LLCoolJD posted:

Stork was always a very talented Protoss who slipped up in big matches. I know he won an OSL but he was Bisu, if Bisu couldn't close.

Stork played absolutely nothing like Bisu. Bisu quite possibly has the best mechanics in the history of Starcraft, but wasn't particularly creative. Stork's mechanics were solid but not great, but he was far more creative in his builds and his large army control was superb.

That said I'll never forget that game 5 where Bisu beat Stork in the MSL finals and in like a 40 minute game Stork never upgraded Dragoon range :(

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016



Elyv posted:

Stork played absolutely nothing like Bisu. Bisu quite possibly has the best mechanics in the history of Starcraft, but wasn't particularly creative. Stork's mechanics were solid but not great, but he was far more creative in his builds and his large army control was superb.

That said I'll never forget that game 5 where Bisu beat Stork in the MSL finals and in like a 40 minute game Stork never upgraded Dragoon range :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5qoYnkXrlM



very good old youtube channel I re-found today
https://www.youtube.com/user/MyDigitalToss

example video of an epic bisu game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjzH69xlS_Q

dogmother1776 fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Apr 25, 2017

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

Last vs Larva today was very cool to watch, Korean casters saying it was one of the most perfectly won games this season.

Webcormac McCarthy
Nov 26, 2007
Fantasy is alive and well

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



So Group A was actually fine, the zergs put up a better than expected fight against Flash and I actually enjoy ZvZ in general.
Group B was pretty dang good, though. It looked to me, going in, like a group in which anyone could advance although I expected Bisu in first and Effort in second. Sea vs Effort was ok but it was obvious who was going to win. I don't understand how Bisu didn't expect to be busted with the build he used against Soulkey, he had absolutely no units. I was very impressed by Soulkey's decision making and hold in the winners ZvZ, Bisu vs Sea was the game of the night, that midgame drop play was so sick. Effort's midgame decision-making on CB was very confusing to me; the map is enormous and has been around forever, he has to know that the correct way to play it is to expand aggressively but instead he stayed on 3 bases and tried to go hydra/muta, an army whose purpose in life is to kill Protosses midgame army when they move out. Except it's cross spawn CB so Bisu didn't go anywhere, unsurprisingly, and he just wasted everything attacking the third and basically lost at that point. Still entertaining though.

Elyv fucked around with this message at 19:24 on May 2, 2017

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014


it's a shame brood war is still pretty much the only good esport.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

Compare Hyun vs flash from last week with effort vs sea this week

Identical builds, different race wins

jaedong vs Last on Sunday could be the best match of this whole tournament if it happens.

WDIIA
Jan 14, 2006

K-I-N-G, The AU City Don
I know you heard about me
And this mission I'm on
But not a R-A-T,
I'm just tryin to live on
Not in a penitentiary
I'd rather be rollin chrome
WATCH THE FINAL GAME OF Ro16 GROUP D

He ended up losing but JDs midgame zerg-Ultra swarm was almost the platonic ideal of the Zerg Swarm
But Last just expanded too big too quickly while JD didn't, and Last eventually starting fighting really efficiently with vultures while JD took some sloppy trades


Still, almost nonstop action

EDIT: Kinda wonky Ro8 bracket but it should be interesting with some good storylines: Mong V Shine for battle of the underdogs, Last v Flash for battle of the best modern Terran

Also Bisu v Flash Finals would be crazy

WDIIA fucked around with this message at 13:28 on May 9, 2017

Webcormac McCarthy
Nov 26, 2007

WDIIA posted:

WATCH THE FINAL GAME OF Ro16 GROUP D

He ended up losing but JDs midgame zerg-Ultra swarm was almost the platonic ideal of the Zerg Swarm
But Last just expanded too big too quickly while JD didn't, and Last eventually starting fighting really efficiently with vultures while JD took some sloppy trades


Still, almost nonstop action

Late game action is just so much better than Sc2, what a great game

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

can't wait to watch these games later I hope JD killed it

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



WDIIA posted:

WATCH THE FINAL GAME OF Ro16 GROUP D

He ended up losing but JDs midgame zerg-Ultra swarm was almost the platonic ideal of the Zerg Swarm
But Last just expanded too big too quickly while JD didn't, and Last eventually starting fighting really efficiently with vultures while JD took some sloppy trades


It's funny because my reaction to this game - hell, this group - is a bit different from yours, and has kind of crystalized some thoughts that have been percolating in my head for a while. Warning: some rambling and whining ahead.
I started following professional BW in early 2008. At the time, zerg had 2 timings where they were stronger than T; between the time Lair tech comes out and the time Irradiate comes out, and in the late game when they were on 4 gas defiler ultraling. It was a Terran favored mu, but zerg could fight. I watch the games in this group - and hell, even games back in 2010 or 2011 - and I don't understand how zerg is supposed to beat a top Terran anymore. Zerg's always been disadvantaged in the matchup, but I feel like the advantages they've had in the past have basically been negated by Terran advances. Their midgame defense and control is so good that they're able to move out on the map even while the mutas are out and vessels aren't yet to stop zerg's third, and the late game mech transition lets Terran expand greedily and then choke the zerg to death. When is Zerg supposed to gain an advantage? Like, in Last vs Jaedong, I don't think Jaedong was ever ahead. He was attacking a 5 or 6 base Terran with 4 base zerg! Unless he killed 2 or 3 bases it was eventually not going to work, even though he was killing a lot of tanks and forced some bases to lift. It's incredibly frustrating to watch an incredibly played game like that from two of the top 10 players in the world and feel the entire time like I know exactly what's going to happen. I actually play Terran and I'm loving awful, I'm like 2-20 in 1.18, so this isn't about my personal experience.

For the record, my favorite game of the group was losers. JD won with 9pool speed vs 12pool 12gas which is just amazing because that's a super hard counter and hero didn't even play badly. I'm pretty excited for Flash vs Last in Ro8 because TvT is my favorite mu to spectate.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

drat that sucks but at least JD didn't die to a sunken bust lol

This new thing Last does with vultures is pretty cool. Before terrans would defend till 1 vessel then push zerg's third with 1 vessel, 2/3 tanks, and bio.

Last has been going from 3 barracks to vultures with upgrades and he mines the path from the zerg main to the third so re-enforcements get blown up. Basically gets him total map control. The mutas can't keep up with speed vultures and zerg can't travel between their bases (or counter attack) because of mines. Then he already has factories, map control, and lots of time for the mech switch. It has to be less apm intensive too because you can shift click vultures and mines and forget about them.

Makes sense why Effort and Hyun were doing that weird build where they got fast drops and go for island bases.

So Last is probably playing Flash and he isn't going to win that match :P

WDIIA
Jan 14, 2006

K-I-N-G, The AU City Don
I know you heard about me
And this mission I'm on
But not a R-A-T,
I'm just tryin to live on
Not in a penitentiary
I'd rather be rollin chrome

Elyv posted:

It's funny because my reaction to this game - hell, this group - is a bit different from yours, and has kind of crystalized some thoughts that have been percolating in my head for a while. Warning: some rambling and whining ahead.
I started following professional BW in early 2008. At the time, zerg had 2 timings where they were stronger than T; between the time Lair tech comes out and the time Irradiate comes out, and in the late game when they were on 4 gas defiler ultraling. It was a Terran favored mu, but zerg could fight. I watch the games in this group - and hell, even games back in 2010 or 2011 - and I don't understand how zerg is supposed to beat a top Terran anymore. Zerg's always been disadvantaged in the matchup, but I feel like the advantages they've had in the past have basically been negated by Terran advances. Their midgame defense and control is so good that they're able to move out on the map even while the mutas are out and vessels aren't yet to stop zerg's third, and the late game mech transition lets Terran expand greedily and then choke the zerg to death. When is Zerg supposed to gain an advantage? Like, in Last vs Jaedong, I don't think Jaedong was ever ahead. He was attacking a 5 or 6 base Terran with 4 base zerg! Unless he killed 2 or 3 bases it was eventually not going to work, even though he was killing a lot of tanks and forced some bases to lift. It's incredibly frustrating to watch an incredibly played game like that from two of the top 10 players in the world and feel the entire time like I know exactly what's going to happen. I actually play Terran and I'm loving awful, I'm like 2-20 in 1.18, so this isn't about my personal experience.

For the record, my favorite game of the group was losers. JD won with 9pool speed vs 12pool 12gas which is just amazing because that's a super hard counter and hero didn't even play badly. I'm pretty excited for Flash vs Last in Ro8 because TvT is my favorite mu to spectate.


We started watching at about the same time, and my feelings actually aren't that different
When I sad that Jaedong, was looking like the ideal Zerg, I meant more in terms of design perspective: Terran was just happily chugging along and suddenly there are small bugs and big bugs and flying bugs dropping other bugs and bugs spurting out concentrated virus and they are EVERYWHERE gently caress

I do definitely agree that Zerg, at least at the high level, is in a rough place right now. Top-level Terrans are too good to get muta harassed to death like JulyZerg used to do to them, and the fact that Terran finally figured out how to mech switch means that lurkers have far less utility than they used to (RIP Cholera Build). Flash's 5 Rax build is just absurdly good, and Zerg's main response is to rush Hive and pry they make it long enough to hit during the mech switch itself. Last faked 5 Rax and went a 3 Rax Tech/Expand build and he STILL managed to get a Bio push that almost won the game.

There were points where I think JD made some choices that cost him the game: His muta switch was perfectly timed, but then he pretty much needlessly sac'd them. His aggression was decent, but he didn't conclusively kill a base or cut of the right and left bases. His Ling-Ultra control was good for a while, but then he started A moving them base to base in single file, letting a ton of them die to mines. But I really can't fault JD for that, because he would have had to play perfectly on multiple fronts at the same time to pull it off.

In old days, players would have been able to go into the lab as a team and try and hash something out. But with the current streaming environment, I worry that things may stagnate, especially for old guard Zergs like Jaedong...

Hopefully in the next ASL can adjust things with maps. I was excited for Camelot because it's new, but it's def T favored

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

Soulkey vs best this weekend in the quarterfinals

I think soulkey wins 2-0 (I assume it's bo3). Soulkey already beat bisu in the group stage and bisu has way better PvZ than Best.

Best is one of my favorite protosses but I think it's better if soulkey wins because he's the only Zerg likely to make it out. Shine is cool but I don't see him beating mong in a bo3.

I think the round of 4 is gonna be:
Soulkey
Mong
Bisu
Flash

Last might be better than Flash right now in practice games but flash's set play and experience give him a huge advantage imo.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



dogmother1776 posted:

Soulkey vs best this weekend in the quarterfinals

I think soulkey wins 2-0 (I assume it's bo3). Soulkey already beat bisu in the group stage and bisu has way better PvZ than Best.

Bisu vs Soulkey was Bisu trying to take his inbase third early and dying to hydralisks as a result, it wasn't some incredible demonstration of dominance I'd agree that Bisu's PvZ is better than Best's, but I think this match is going to be closer than you give it credit for.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

yeah 2-0 is probably optimistic but I want soulkey to win cause last Zerg. the momentum of 2-0 would be great to have against flash/last in quarters.

Though best vs flash would be an awesome match to watch and probably closer than SK vs Flash. idk maybe I'm going to change my mind now :)

Kite Pride Worldwide
Apr 20, 2009


Clearly the solution is mass Queens :getin:

JollyPubJerk
Nov 10, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
issue with lategame zerg is that once they lose their mutas they're hosed, and it's really easy to lose those mutas, even if you're JD. I hope they figure out a way to play different.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Muta was traditionally the midgame transition unit that you expected to lose once Vessels came out. They don't do poo poo against heavily upgraded Terran units without upgrades and no one upgrades air past sometimes +1 because of how awful they are against Vessels, which Terran is likely to have during the phase of the game they're on bio. Once they're on mech they sometimes transition out of them, but you're not likely to be able to sit around upgrading air forever, and even if you are you still need to actually build an air army at some point and Terran can always start building vessels again.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



so I haven't even finished the series yet, but game 1 of Ssak Bisu is required viewing. Not even kidding.

Kibibit
Sep 10, 2009

You must be a friend that's good at shredding!

Elyv posted:

so I haven't even finished the series yet, but game 1 of Ssak Bisu is required viewing. Not even kidding.

Goddamn that game was so good, rarely do I ever go back and rewatch a match before I watch the next game in the series.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

lmao all of those games were great bisu Protoss micro god

Webcormac McCarthy
Nov 26, 2007

Elyv posted:

so I haven't even finished the series yet, but game 1 of Ssak Bisu is required viewing. Not even kidding.

What an insane game is can be

WDIIA
Jan 14, 2006

K-I-N-G, The AU City Don
I know you heard about me
And this mission I'm on
But not a R-A-T,
I'm just tryin to live on
Not in a penitentiary
I'd rather be rollin chrome
If you are awake you need to turn on Shine-Mong, Game 1 is on right now and it is already crazy cool

G1: Mong is certainly no Flash or Last but it was great watching Shine play Terran like a fiddle. Completely out-thought and outplayed

G2: Mong managed to pull off a crazy good drop and Shine still managed to gut out a win with Guardians-Hydras-Lurkers with some great micro, so exciting

This already may be one of my favorite sets out of all the ASLs

G3: I feel like that was a really neat build that Shine was going for that Mong managed to derail by going with a non-meta timing.

G4: Hatch into Mong's base to allow a nydus to ferry in Luker-ling into GG, holy gently caress!!!

G5: There is no Game 5! But man, Shine is the hero we need! Certainly not the most competitive series and Mong really didn't play too good, but if you're familiar with BW strategy it was a real treat

WDIIA fucked around with this message at 12:40 on May 16, 2017

Minera
Sep 26, 2007

All your friends and foes,
they thought they knew ya,
but look who's in your heart now.
that game 4 :allears:

Like I've seen it happen before, but not in a high level game and so recently. Observers OP!

Elephunk
Dec 6, 2007



Shine vs. Mong already tons of fun from game 1, the classic fake-out

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



I loving love Shine in this tournament, he's shown some real creativity. IIRC Shine first became known when he beat Bisu in an OSL qualifier match with 5 hatch Hydra twice and man would it be funny if he did it again.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

Shine vs Mong was the coolest series ever and I hope Shine wins the whole tournament now. He wasn't lying when he said he had secret strats in the interview.

Shine must face Bisu now though :ohdear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk3uDIjF_B0

dogmother1776 fucked around with this message at 05:27 on May 17, 2017

Kite Pride Worldwide
Apr 20, 2009


That sneaky nydus :eyepop:

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



dogmother1776 posted:

Shine vs Mong was the coolest series ever and I hope Shine wins the whole tournament now. He wasn't lying when he said he had secret strats in the interview.

Shine must face Bisu now though :ohdear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk3uDIjF_B0

Shine beating Bisu is a thing I can see happening. If Flash is in the finals though as he's expected to be, I just don't think Shine's cute tricks will work. Flash has a lot of strengths, but I feel like what truly sets him apart is game sense and crisis management.

dogmother1776
Apr 16, 2016

Elyv posted:

Shine beating Bisu is a thing I can see happening. If Flash is in the finals though as he's expected to be, I just don't think Shine's cute tricks will work. Flash has a lot of strengths, but I feel like what truly sets him apart is game sense and crisis management.
Anticipating something like this:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yzDGNBKplVw

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Elephunk
Dec 6, 2007




Man, there is just years of great stuff to catch up on isn't there?



Lots of great crowd shots + crowd noise made this one awesome if there's more in the category of "hype in a language I don't understand"

I think I saw two women crying at the end

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