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Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Raere posted:

NTP is important and he should be funded unless he's working on some useless fork because principles
i thought systemd killed the ntp star

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Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Open Source Safe Space

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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quote:

On that level, it is possible in principle that I could be persuaded by cool features and a winning cost-benefit ratio. Or even if somebody offered me a sufficiently huge pile of money — enough, say, to finance a space program run from a Bond-supervillain-style fortress on my own Caribbean island. But it doesn’t matter. Because there’s an emotional place where I have no give, and that is in is my visceral, steaming hatred of the production system that Microsoft exemplifies. I refuse to support it in any way, no matter how shiny the products look to other people. I will have no part of helping it do to the young, malleable, innocent programmers of today and tomorrow what was done to me and my peers.

Because two decades later, my scars still ache.
triggered

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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fun fact: tim paterson, who retired around the age of 35 or so, used to have a tin cup tacked to his office door at microsoft because he read an article in the seattle times suggesting that they bought the DOS rights from him and left him in the gutter

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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raymond is the leading contributor to ntpsec so you can't necessarily say he's been slacking

otoh his commits don't seem particularly issue-driven compared to commits in the ntp project. he spends an undue amount of time on small-scale code hygiene and the build system

i kinda want him to take a job not just to pay the bills but to refresh his project management skills. as valuable as code hygiene is, someone with his level of exp should be able to take on more strategic improvements rather than piddling around c99 conversion

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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he wrote the emacs vc driver and has contributed to it substantially over the years

admittedly this does point to a pattern in his behavior (spelled out in the cathedral and the bazaar) that he only wants to do work that seems helpful to him as a coder

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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power botton posted:

please state your sources
commits

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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TOOT BOOT posted:

commit to continuing your post career elsewhere

thx 4 the tip but i'm not a "career" poster .. more of a freelance posting consultant

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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from raymond's partner in time crime

https://binaryredneck.net/2010/09/11/hacker-culture-not-optional/

i'm completely indifferent to everything on that list as are my co-workers, yet somehow we manage to make software?

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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eschaton posted:

esr insists he is working on vital infrastructure but voluntary contributions aren't covering the costs

either the infrastructure must not be vital or his entire economic philosophy, that only voluntary contribution is necessary and moral, is wrong
his MO is to wander into a project to "help out", then when his lackluster code changes are rejected he wanders away determined to start his own internet (with blackjack & hookers) but still takes outsized credit for being "involved"

The reason that press reports on ntpsec tend not to mention the split, apparently, is that susan sons herself doesn't mention it. she just talks all about how her team has "rescued" ntp from the one dev who knows how it works

(She criticized the principal dev for being old & out of touch. he's the same age as raymond)

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Suspicious posted:

how does an uberlibertarian even end up believing in free software? strongly compartmentalized thinking?
a lot of libertarians say they want all the good things promised in think tank propaganda but they're "anti-corporate" or "anti-crony" in regards to rent seeking behavior

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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"the heroic age of micros" aka the period when you could pass yourself off as a big shot without much to show for it. much like eric raymond

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:

ntpsec shouldn't exist. its main "feature" is deleting code from the mainstream ntp project.

there already exist alternative implementations of ntp. the only reason to go back to ntpd in the first place is to use unusual features the ntpsec guys are removing

it is a typical esr project: software no one wanted, poorly maintained
you forgot the c99 conversion. int flags are soooo 70s, stdbool is where it's at *vapes*

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Doc Block posted:

"gently caress." is indeed the correct response when esr announces he's started paying attention to a mailing list again. ;)

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2000-August/008030.html

Guido posted:

[ESR]
> 1. Has anybody got a vote on the menubrowser framwork facility I described?

Eric, as far as I can tell you haven't shown the code or given a
pointer to it. I explained to you that your description left me in
the dark as to what it does. Or did I miss a pointer? It seems your
module doesn't even have a name! This is a bad way to start a
discussion about the admission procedure. Nothing has ever been
accepted into Python before the code was written and shown.

> 1. Do we have a procedure for vetting modules for inclusion in the stock
> distribution? If not, should be institute one?

Typically, modules get accepted after extensive lobbying and agreement
from multiple developers. The definition of "developer" is vague, and
I can't give a good rule -- not everybody who has been admitted to the
python-dev list has enough standing to make his opinion count!

Basically, I rely a lot on what various people say, but I have my own
bias about who I trust in what area. I don't think I'll have to
publish a list of this bias, but one thing is clear: I;m not counting
votes! Proposals and ideas get approved based on merit, not on how
many people argue for (or against) it. I want Python to keep its
typical Guido-flavored style, and (apart from the occasional succesful
channeling by TP) there's only one way to do that: let me be the final
arbiter. I'm willing to be the bottleneck, it gives Python the
typical slow-flowing evolution that has served it well over the past
ten years. (At the same time, I can't read all messages in every
thread on python-dev any more -- that's why substantial ideas need a
PEP to summarize the discussion.)

> 2. I am willing to do a pass through the Vaults of Parnassus and other
> sources for modules that seem both sufficiently useful and sufficiently
> mature to be added. I have in mind things like mimectl, PIL, and Vladimir's
> shared-memory module.

I don't know mimectl or Vladimir's module (how does it compare to
mmap?). Regarding PIL, I believe the problem there is that it is a
large body of code maintained by a third party. It should become part
of a SUMO release and of binary releases, but I see no advantage in
carrying it along in the core source distribution.

> Now, assuming I do 3, would I need to go through the vote process
> on each of these, or can I get a ukase from the BDFL authorizing me to
> fold in stuff?

Sorry, I don't write blank checks.

> I realize I'm raising questions for which there are no easy answers.
> But Python is growing. The Python social machine needs to adapt to
> make such decisions in a more timely and less ad-hoc fashion. I'm
> not attached to being the point person in this process, but
> somebody's gotta be.

Watch out though: if we open the floodgates now we may seriously
deteriorate the quality of the standard library, without doing much
good.

I'd much rather see an improved Vaults of Parnassus (where every
module uses distutils and installation becomes trivial) than a
fast-track process for including new code in the core.

That said, I think writing a bunch of thoughts up as a PEP makes a lot
of sense!
(raymond posted the code. it was declined as not generally useful)

aside from that he wrote some docs for curses.wrapper, said that certain things were good ideas and someone should do them, and argued about whether xml is a language

and of course signed every e-mail with a random quote about wanting to shoot someone

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
code:
git log --author thyrsus --format=oneline | cut -c 1-20 |
while read rev; do
    git diff ${rev}^ $rev |
    sed -e '/^diff/,/^+++/d' |
    grep '^[-+]' |
    cut -c 1
done |
sort -r | uniq -c
Emacs (1985-present):
28134 -
44794 +

Python (1990-present):
1298 -
2575 +

NTPsec (1999-present):
570686 -
208250 +

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Feb 20, 2017

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
i went ahead and refined the stats a little because i do want to be fair and also i can't pass up a chance to shell script

code:
amd()
{
    local line first n=0
    sed -e '/^diff/,/^+++/d' |
    grep -v '^@@' |
    while read line; do
        if [ "^$line" != '^~' ]; then
           ((n == 0)) && first="$line"
           ((++n))
           continue
        fi
        if ((n == 0)); then :
        elif ((n > 1)); then echo modified
        elif [[ "^$first" == ^+* ]]; then echo added
        elif [[ "^$first" == ^-* ]]; then echo deleted
        fi
        n=0
    done
}

git log --author=thyrsus --format=oneline | cut -c 1-20 |
while read rev; do
    git diff ${rev}^ $rev --word-diff=porcelain | amd
done |
sort | uniq -c
Emacs:
30999 added
17243 deleted
 7855 modified

Python:
1338 added
 241 deleted
 995 modified

NTPsec:
152225 added
470953 deleted
 31458 modified

(for entertainment purposes only)

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Feb 20, 2017

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
"hacker identity" is just another way of saying "poor"

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

PCjr sidecar posted:

2 HOURS INCLUDING WIND DOWN EVERY MORNIng
IT'S THE UNIX TIME SHARING SYSTEM AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE WITH THE AUTHOR, DOUG MCILROY. I FOLLOW EVERY PRINCIPLE AND I FOLLOW IT HARD, MAKING WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I CREATE A PIPELINE OR EVEN WHEN I SEG FAULT. NOT MANY PEOPLE CAN SAY THEY USED THE WORLDS MOST ADVANCED OPERATING SYSTEM. I CAN. I SAY IT AND I SAY IT OUTLOUD TO PEOPLE ON MY MAILING LISTS AND ALL THEY DO IS PROVE THAT SOFTWARE ENGINEERS CAN STILL BE UNENLIGHTENED JEKRS. AND IVE LEARNED ALL THE GIT SUBCOMMANDS AND IVE LEARNED HOW TO MAKE MYSELF AND MY PROJECTS MORE ACTIVE BY USING EM ALL

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Feb 23, 2017

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

JawnV6 posted:

the original docs were boring so we made a complex manpage-to-HTML transcoding solution
this doesn't seem like such an unreasonable thing to do, would you rather maintain this file or this one

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

George posted:

yeah the jokes write themselves

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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if only ihtler had been content to LARP his narcissistic ambitions

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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I'm dead

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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Of course he addresses himself to the "dear reader" . Of course he does

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
You want to make a contribution
Yeah you know
We all want to change the world

You've got a software solution
Yeah you know
We all want to change the world

But when you talk about disruption
Well you can count me out

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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granted that some sjws don't know how to chill, anti-sjws respond by demonstrating that they, too, can refuse to chill

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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lol if some half your age accuses you of being a bigot and you don't respond with "ok whatever"

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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maynard raymond is a tremendous tool but that doesn't mean people should feel at liberty to make veiled threats to his personal safety

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 07:03 on May 7, 2017

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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i don't care if his definition of "unsafe" is silly. throwing the same inflammatory language back at him, in public view, is irresponsible & not conducive to desired outcomes

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Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
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"programmer"

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