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Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012
Well, that episode was weird. Can we not with the sympathetic child molesters? If that was a male teacher having a sexual relationship with a female student, it would be loving creepy and the show would 100% know it was loving creepy. I feel like the show doesn't necessarily know how creepy Ms. Grundy is. Like I feel like that entire storyline was some adolescent fantasy of one of the main writers and he decided to live it out through Archie. It was weird. Anyway, I'm glad it's over.

Also Jughead is homeless? And his dad is apparently a gangbanger? Whaaaaaaat.

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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
Well that was a lot better than last week.

Though I'm not sure what the show's long term plans are considering they're blowing right through plotlines really quickly. But I guess the comics gone on for a million years so they have a lot of inspiration.

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

Spergatory posted:

Like I feel like that entire storyline was some adolescent fantasy of one of the main writers and he decided to live it out through Archie.

I mean what you know doesn't necessarily change what you feel, and I thought that whole storyline was uncomfortable too. But for what it's worth, any unfulfilled jerk-off fantasies Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa may have had for his teachers would have been for the male ones.

I think it's just the sort of situation where, because many of us are wired to think of guys as aggressors in sexual roles, it's hard for some writers -- be they man, woman, gay, or straight -- to write women in those sorts of inappropriate student-teacher relationships as predators, even if the student is underage. (It also doesn't help that everyone on this show looks way older than 15-16.) To be clear, I'm not trying to start a debate on how "it's different," because it's not; he's still underage, she's still responsible for part of his upbringing...it's wrong, full stop. I'm just nitpicking and trying to provide a more realistic look at what might have gone wrong in the room.

Having said that, that last little scene with Grundy tells me it's more complicated than "gosh, won't someone think of the child molesters" and everybody gets that it's a problem. Which is good, because I'm not even entirely sure they're done with Grundy.

Episode 5 preview: I know episode 4 made Grundy seem like she was hiding a bigger secret than she actually was, so I'm not holding my breath for anything too insane. Still, I did not expect them to go full "WHAT'S IN THE BOOOOOOOX" this fast!

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.
Is Jughead ever going to eat a hamburger on this show or what

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012

JethroMcB posted:

Is Jughead ever going to eat a hamburger on this show or what

He's homeless. He can't afford burgers. Why do you think he started eating that kid's sundae last week? He was hungry.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
I was kind of rolling my eyes over Jughead's impassioned pleas about how the Drive In was like his home so the twist of it actually literally being his home was pretty slick.

xeria
Jul 26, 2004

Ruh roh...

Spergatory posted:

Well, that episode was weird. Can we not with the sympathetic child molesters? If that was a male teacher having a sexual relationship with a female student, it would be loving creepy and the show would 100% know it was loving creepy.

Pretty Little Liars would like a word with you (much to my unending chagrin).

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!

Well I loved that episode. Betty and Veronica are the best. Also Skeet Ulrich as Jughead's dad and leader of the local gang? That is just fantastic.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Alice Cooper: Monster of Truth. :allears:

Spergatory posted:

Well, that episode was weird. Can we not with the sympathetic child molesters? If that was a male teacher having a sexual relationship with a female student, it would be loving creepy and the show would 100% know it was loving creepy. I feel like the show doesn't necessarily know how creepy Ms. Grundy is. Like I feel like that entire storyline was some adolescent fantasy of one of the main writers and he decided to live it out through Archie. It was weird. Anyway, I'm glad it's over.

The show is pretty clear on the fact that Grundy is a creepy predatory child molester. Jughead says this. Betty says this. Betty says this after she hears about the whole domestic abuse thing. None of the characters thinks what's going down is cool and good except Archie himself. And then the last time we see of her in this episode is her back in her Lolita glasses, drink in hand, perving on schoolboys- clearly we're not supposed to read this as some great romance for her.

So the decision to suddenly cast Alice as the villain of the piece and let Grundy ride off into the sunset is weird, I'll grant you. Maybe she really did kill Jason, and the show needs to keep her around for the big reveal? Or maybe the point is Alice's scorched earth tactics are self defeating? :shrug:

I'm not sure how seriously we're supposed to take her "tragic past". Everything else she's told people about who she is or where she's from has been a lie, and it's not like she's scrupled from trying to manipulate Archie into staying in line before.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Though I'm not sure what the show's long term plans are considering they're blowing right through plotlines really quickly.

These sorts of shows are so fond of dragging plotlines out or repeating themselves that I'm really happy to see one that... isn't.

xeria posted:

Pretty Little Liars would like a word with you (much to my unending chagrin).

That one was doubly weird because, in addition to being a child molester, Fitz also turns out to be a... nebbish, petty manchild? He's wildly unattractive even before you factor in the paedophile thing, but the show clearly expects the viewer to identify primarily with Aria and portrays the relationship- most of the time- as true love.

It at least makes sense why Aria's into him, because she's a) actually pretty terrible herself, b) kind of a dipshit, and c) has this fetish for being worldly and sophisticated and mature for her age. But if you don't share that particular pathology, what in the gently caress is the appeal? :confuoot:

Oh, and it's nice to see Kevin get a plotline of his own. Perhaps he'll develop character traits, and other interesting features.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.

Spergatory posted:

He's homeless. He can't afford burgers. Why do you think he started eating that kid's sundae last week? He was hungry.

I suppose now they HAVE done the set up that would justify Jughead's Dad being able to accuse him of "literally eating us out of house and home."

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012
I just hope that now that Archie is out of the Grundy quagmire, he can actually be, like, a friend to people. I'm pretty sure Archie is generally supposed to be a pretty decent dude, but the show started with him at his shittiest and most oblivious and all of his plots so far have been about him being kind of a dick. But most of him being a dick can actually be traced back to him being under Grundy's spell, so now that he's out of it, I want to see the guy Betty and Jughead were willing to put up with so much poo poo in order to get back.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

This is one of my favorite shows. I loved the Archie Comics and the latest reboot of the series. Also the Sheriff and his gay son relationship was the best character moment of the episode. Also, I am not sure what this is being filmed on but the show looks great. Probably because it's all soft light.


Edit:


I cannot stand Alice.

Hollismason fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Feb 17, 2017

xeria
Jul 26, 2004

Ruh roh...

Autonomous Monster posted:

That one was doubly weird because, in addition to being a child molester, Fitz also turns out to be a... nebbish, petty manchild? He's wildly unattractive even before you factor in the paedophile thing, but the show clearly expects the viewer to identify primarily with Aria and portrays the relationship- most of the time- as true love.

It at least makes sense why Aria's into him, because she's a) actually pretty terrible herself, b) kind of a dipshit, and c) has this fetish for being worldly and sophisticated and mature for her age. But if you don't share that particular pathology, what in the gently caress is the appeal? :confuoot:

Yeah, I think if you compare PLL's treatment of Fitz to Riverdale's of Ms Grundy, there's no contest. PLL twisted itself in knots to excuse Fitz, even during the half-season where everyone thought he might be the stalker/murderer AND after Aria and friends discovered that he definitely knew Aria was a teenager/in high school when they hooked up at that restaurant (instead of "in college" like he'd always let everyone believe) AND hooked up with her explicitly to have an inside track on getting details on Alison for his book. And then all her friends/the show itself enabled Aria to forgive him because True Love, don't you see how much she loves him? And he loves her? It's all totally okay and above board if it's in the name of love!

Compare to Riverdale, especially the scenes only Grundy or her and Archie are privy to -- we see her overtly manipulating him into not going to the police ("No, you see, I care about you, and if you tell them then I would be in trouble and they'd keep us apart. You don't want that, do you?"), then effectively rewarding him for leaving her out of his July 4th story to the police to protect her, and then that last shot of her lolita-glasses'ing at other presumably high school boys on her way out of town. Even with her domestic abuse story, however much of it is actually true, the show paints her in a light that's pretty explicitly "she is predatory and cannot be trusted".

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

Can we talk about how wonderful Luke Perry is as Archies dad. This episode had some really great scenes. Especially between Alice and Betty.Also, I liked that everyone was " This is a terrible idea Archie this is wrong and she is a bad person"



Edit:

Oh poo poo! Skeet Ulrich as Jugheads Dad was great.

Hollismason fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Feb 17, 2017

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

xeria posted:

Compare to Riverdale, especially the scenes only Grundy or her and Archie are privy to -- we see her overtly manipulating him into not going to the police ("No, you see, I care about you, and if you tell them then I would be in trouble and they'd keep us apart. You don't want that, do you?"), then effectively rewarding him for leaving her out of his July 4th story to the police to protect her, and then that last shot of her lolita-glasses'ing at other presumably high school boys on her way out of town. Even with her domestic abuse story, however much of it is actually true, the show paints her in a light that's pretty explicitly "she is predatory and cannot be trusted".

I also, after thinking about it, kinda feel like Archie is taking on some of the personality (for want of a less rear end in a top hat-y word) "quirks" of a rape victim? Like, Alice kinda slut-shamed him during that whole confrontation, and he copped to it in some desperate attempt to get Miss Grundy some clemency, but his self-esteem is really low. Even in that first episode, he was telling Betty, "Of course I love you, but I'm not good enough for you." He has a tendency to think of himself as a bit of a shitlord; I'm sure a lot of it is rooted in his inappropriate relationship with Miss Grundy, and how that's stopped him from doing things like tell Sheriff Keller about the gunshot he heard, or, you know, give his best friend in the world the answer she wants for a question she had to ask.

xeria
Jul 26, 2004

Ruh roh...

DivisionPost posted:

I also, after thinking about it, kinda feel like Archie is taking on some of the personality (for want of a less rear end in a top hat-y word) "quirks" of a rape victim? Like, Alice kinda slut-shamed him during that whole confrontation, and he copped to it in some desperate attempt to get Miss Grundy some clemency, but his self-esteem is really low. Even in that first episode, he was telling Betty, "Of course I love you, but I'm not good enough for you." He has a tendency to think of himself as a bit of a shitlord; I'm sure a lot of it is rooted in his inappropriate relationship with Miss Grundy, and how that's stopped him from doing things like tell Sheriff Keller about the gunshot he heard, or, you know, give his best friend in the world the answer she wants for a question she had to ask.

Yeah, factor in also how he damaged his friendship with Jughead (supposedly) by ditching him to go frolic down by the river with Grundy, and knows he did exactly that and was seemingly too ashamed to go to the guy and apologize at any point between July 4th and the start of the school year. I think you can see shades of him starting to tie his self-worth (with regard to his music, etc.) to Grundy before Betty/Veronica/Alice/Fred all step in to help end it.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I think it's good that he is like that as it allows for character growth. I just liked that everyone was horrified by the situation.

no broccoli please
Apr 20, 2007

no broccoli please you are nice here is a Nathaniel Hawthorne avatar
I gotta say I laughed my rear end off at the obituary of the real Ms. Grundy. It was just like, ah, yeah, there she is. That makes sense now.

Jamesman
Nov 19, 2004

"First off, let me start by saying curly light blond hair does not suit Hyomin at all. Furthermore,"
Fun Shoe
I kinda like Cheryl's character. She's such a bitchy Mean Girls stereotype, but it's projected so blatantly and she's called on it so much, and she knows she's doing it. You see her wanting to not do it and actually let her guard down and open up and be friends with the others, but she keeps reverting back to pushing them away with her bullshit.

I'd compare her to Cordelia from Buffy. A person who feels pressured and compelled to act high and mighty but will eventually (hopefully) get over their poo poo and become a cool person and do cool things.


I also NEED Betty's mom to die already because her character is just so antagonizing it's the more irritating thing about this show. Her Dead Man on Campus husband needs to do a few bong rips and drive their car into oncoming traffic.

Troposphere
Jul 11, 2005


psycho killer
qu'est-ce que c'est?
I love everything about this show it's amazing and I can't wait for more

The Narrator
Aug 11, 2011

bernie would have won
Seriously, when Mr Lodge is acquitted when he buys off the jury, and returns to Riverdale to run for mayor or governor or whatever, he better look like Mr Lodge with the white hair and moustache and everything

Argue
Sep 29, 2005

I represent the Philippines
Not if the one-shot prequel comic is anything to go by: http://i.imgur.com/eWZku4d.jpg

SEX BURRITO
Jun 30, 2007

Not much fun

Troposphere posted:

I love everything about this show it's amazing and I can't wait for more

Same. I love Archie comics and teen melodramas so this show feels like it was made for me. Love Betty, Veronica and evil twin. Not so keen on Archie, gay stereotype and emo Jughead. But it's always the girls who are more interesting in these kinds of shows.

I miss the teen melodrama mega thread we had in TVIV years ago. It was a great place to discuss our guiltiest TV pleasures. Which were mostly Gilmore Girls and Gossip Girl apparently.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


xeria posted:

Compare to Riverdale, especially the scenes only Grundy or her and Archie are privy to -- we see her overtly manipulating him into not going to the police ("No, you see, I care about you, and if you tell them then I would be in trouble and they'd keep us apart. You don't want that, do you?"), then effectively rewarding him for leaving her out of his July 4th story to the police to protect her, and then that last shot of her lolita-glasses'ing at other presumably high school boys on her way out of town. Even with her domestic abuse story, however much of it is actually true, the show paints her in a light that's pretty explicitly "she is predatory and cannot be trusted".
I assume the story is not true at all because it's basically the perfect story to manipulate Archie into doing what she wants. If it happened to be true, that would be a huge coincidence. Also, when she was trying to convince Archie not to talk to the cops she kept implying that he'd be in trouble as well, not just that he should stay quiet to protect her.

Jamesman posted:

Cordelia from Buffy. A person who feels pressured and compelled to act high and mighty but will eventually (hopefully) get over their poo poo and become a cool person and do cool things bland and pointless character.
FTFY.

The Narrator
Aug 11, 2011

bernie would have won
I'm thinking there's a connection between Grundy and Jason Blossom wanting to disappear.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012
Since Jason actually died a week after he disappeared, it could even have been Grundy Gibson who killed him, though that seems a little too easy.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




I think Alice is right but nobody pays attention to her, and Jason wanted to run because the Blossoms are occultists.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012
Been doing some reading up on the character histories, and boy would it be a waste if they didn't cast Dylan Sprouse as Jughead's identical cousin Nathan.

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

Tiggum posted:

I assume the story is not true at all because it's basically the perfect story to manipulate Archie into doing what she wants. If it happened to be true, that would be a huge coincidence.

Yeah, but (warning: armchair psychology backed up by zero classes taken in college) if it happened to be true it would also explain why she's cougaring underage students. "Men" are overly strong, violent, controlling assholes, but boys, particularly ones that are inclined to follow her lead...

She could totally be bullshitting her way out of a situation, of course, but I think an abusive husband would throw some gas on those sorts of pathological inclinations.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather
I watched through these episodes, because this recap-podcast by General Ironicus and his wife. That podcast is really great and I suggest you to follow it.

Narcissus1916
Apr 29, 2013

Previously.tv has some dude who posted spoilers and so far they've been 100% accurate. If you're so inclined...

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!

Narcissus1916 posted:

Previously.tv has some dude who posted spoilers and so far they've been 100% accurate. If you're so inclined...

I would ask that anyone that goes looking for these does not post them here or links to them. We can go unspoiled here.

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

cant cook creole bream posted:

I watched through these episodes, because this recap-podcast by General Ironicus and his wife. That podcast is really great and I suggest you to follow it.

You had me at General Ironicus. And the podcast is indeed awesome.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


This is pretty much just wild speculation, but one thing that occurred to me is that Polly might be missing. It would explain why Alice won't let Betty go visit her, and would open up the possibility of her being a suspect in the murder.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Yeah, controlling as Alice is I think there's definitely something up with Polly. There was a fun theory Betty actually is Polly and maybe that's why she's hella medicated, but this many episodes in I can't see that making any sense whatsoever.

Betty is hands down going to snap and think she's her sister at some point, though. Like in a bigger way than we saw with Chuck. I hope so, anyway. poo poo would be glorious-- from day one I've been sure 'Betty is gonna crack' will be a big part of the show.

Ville Valo
Sep 17, 2004

I'm waiting for your call
and I'm ready to take
your six six six
in my heart

esperterra posted:

Yeah, controlling as Alice is I think there's definitely something up with Polly. There was a fun theory Betty actually is Polly and maybe that's why she's hella medicated, but this many episodes in I can't see that making any sense whatsoever.

Betty is hands down going to snap and think she's her sister at some point, though. Like in a bigger way than we saw with Chuck. I hope so, anyway. poo poo would be glorious-- from day one I've been sure 'Betty is gonna crack' will be a big part of the show.

I was totally on board with Betty-is-Polly, but it just wouldn't make sense now. I think her inevitable break down is gonna be better than that predictable-at-the-time twist would've been, anyway.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
I never figured Id be at a point in my life where I'd be worried about Archie spoilers yet here I am.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012

Narcissus1916 posted:

Previously.tv has some dude who posted spoilers and so far they've been 100% accurate. If you're so inclined...

Apparently there have been some full-on leaks because I just saw gifs of a scene that definitely has not happened yet, and all I can say is :aaa:

Narcissus1916
Apr 29, 2013

Most of the leaks sound great, and if anything got me MORE excited for the show. Half of them can be guessed anyway.

There's only one that has me REALLY worried, and that's because it would shift the direction of the show entirely.

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Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


As well as not posting spoilers, could we also not post about the spoilers, or edge around them in that way where you're sort of talking about them but not really? I don't even care about the spoilers themselves, but this "ooh, there's some things in THESE SPOILERS that I think you MAY or MAY NOT find VERY INTERESTING!" bullshit is super annoying.

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