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The Brown Menace posted:The economic argument for not ending basically slavery is specious as gently caress because these sorts of things always have a big economic exploitation dimension Here's the issue though. Yes, the conditions man migrant workers put up with is grueling and the pay is abysmal, but preventing them from having access to those jobs (restricting H2a visas or somehow making sure those jobs go to Americans by some magical way making it appealing) isn't doing a service to those workers. They're willing to do the work for a reason. It's better than the opportunities available in their homes. That's why I get migraines whenever people talk about kicking all the illegals while also cutting programs like USAID. Like, there are real benefits to the US in fostering development in foreign countries. Even ones that don't have US approved forms of government.
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Mar 7, 2017 15:29
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so immigrants should be thankful for the opportunity to work in dangerous, illegal conditions for illegal wages because it's better than what they had back home? here's a thought: go gently caress yourself
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Mar 7, 2017 16:15
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Fullhouse posted:so immigrants should be thankful for the opportunity to work in dangerous, illegal conditions for illegal wages because it's better than what they had back home? Way to entirely miss the point. Like, just completely. It's that they ARE thankful to work in those conditions which speaks a lot about what the conditions and opportunities are like in their own countries. I'm saying that taking that opportunity away from them and deporting them so you can jack off to your sense of morality isn't doing them any favors. The only way you qualitatively improve their lives in any meaningful way is to either give them a pathway to citizenship, invest in creating economic opportunity in their home countries so that they're loving liveable, or reduce visa restrictions (which has a questionable benefit as many of illegals don't have a means or reason for traveling home when their visas expire).
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Mar 7, 2017 16:33
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Lol nobody is suggesting deportations as a solution to quasi slave labor ya dingus
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Mar 7, 2017 16:44
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BedBuglet posted:The only way you qualitatively improve their lives in any meaningful way is to either give them a pathway to citizenship, invest in creating economic opportunity in their home countries so that they're loving liveable, or reduce visa restrictions (which has a questionable benefit as many of illegals don't have a means or reason for traveling home when their visas expire). just give them labor protections without deporting them lol you ridiculous loving shill
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Mar 7, 2017 16:47
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maybe im just v dumb but i cant get behind the idea of keeping something harmful/exploitative because its less so than some alternatives, instead of trying to make things better even if it has to be a piece at a time we shouldnt keep offering rotten kitchen scraps and old vinegar just because theyre better than eating ashes and drinking runoff, when theres a way to offer bread and clean water
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Mar 7, 2017 16:49
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the trump solution to immigrant labor will of course be to deport a third of them and then lower working standards for American citizens to the same level that Guatemalan farmhands are subject to and a good two-thirds of the pundit class will sloppily gargle his balls for putting Americans back to work or whatever
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Mar 7, 2017 16:54
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The Brown Menace posted:Lol nobody is suggesting deportations as a solution to quasi slave labor ya dingus I mean, except for a substantial part of the GOP. Fullhouse posted:just give them labor protections without deporting them lol you ridiculous loving shill Okay... and how? Like, I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm trying to get you to apply a modicum of effort into proposing an actual solution rather than displays of misplaced moral outrage. I'm not saying virtual slavery is good. I'm not saying I don't want to improve working conditions for migrant workers. I'm saying that people who think that if we just get rid of immigrants somehow blue collar jobs will come back are idiots, and that dems don't put out a meaningful and realistic reform because it'd piss off their corporate sponsors. So, what's a realistic solution? Here's an example for you. Updating our low skill visa system to reduce the cost to employers to bring workers into the country while also federalizing worker standards for things like agriculture because state laws circumvent protections like minimum wage laws. That way you can keep ag business from bitching while also having a chance at imposing changes that do something. I don't know what you think my position is but I suspect you're wrong. Take a step back and calm down. BedBuglet has issued a correction as of 17:21 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 17:19
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you are incapable of understanding any solution that isn't mired in a dozen layers of technocracy and economic incentives. currently undocumented workers cannot file complaints against their employees because they have no protections under the law and face constant threats of deportation, either implicitly by their very existence or explicitly by their shitbag employer telling them "if you unionize/ask me for higher wages/don't work enormous overtime then I'll report you and your family to ICE and we wouldn't want that would we". so just let them file complaints through the (soon to be gutted) labor department and stop deporting people that haven't actually committed any crimes and now you have the economic underclass required for your version of capitalism to exist except they legally have to be treated fairly and don't live in constant fear of having their family destroyed
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Mar 7, 2017 18:03
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BedBuglet posted:I mean, except for a substantial part of the GOP. Oh word? You mean the objectively bad guys of whom you are arguing against 0 people with itt? Makes u 🤔🤔🤔🤔
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Mar 7, 2017 21:01
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BedBuglet posted:I'm saying that people who think that if we just get rid of immigrants somehow blue collar jobs will come back are idiots, and that dems don't put out a meaningful and realistic reform because it'd piss off their corporate sponsors. So, what's a realistic solution? Literally nobody itt is taking the trumpian position of deporting them to maga it up, knock it off already. Anyway you seem to be on the right path sort of since you realize that The Dems Are Insanely Bad. Any left-wing party worth its salt would have brought them into the fold already but as mentioned The Dems Are Insanely Bad and will just ignore them or have their creepier elements jerk off about how latinos are just such a great docile race of insect-like laborers who are glad to be treated like slaves as long as they get to escape their basket case countries (major reasons for them being basket cases mysteriously left unmentioned), unlike those entitled Americans who demand adequate compensation and breaks and poo poo like actual people (this is the worst bad dem take by far and it is infuriatingly common). The solution is subverting the dems until through a combination of boomers dying off and people getting their head out of their rear end, they become an actual left-wing party
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Mar 7, 2017 21:15
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I was listening to We The People podcast and Josh Zepps was all like "Back in Australia we pay laborers $30 an hour and are pretty stringent about who we let in, but I love having immigrants around because you get to try so many interesting kinds of food... and coffee!" so I started autotreppaning to get out the evil spirits of dumb loving carefree media liberals who make Trump's dumb case for him by describing America like it's their own personal Disney World that gets new exhibits every time one of us shows up with a new way to cook a potato and then I was like aw to hell with it and just drilled all the way into my loving brain.
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Mar 7, 2017 21:23
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So what I'm saying is now I am excited for the prospect of Four More Years, yeehaw.
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Mar 7, 2017 21:25
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last I checked Australia sticks people seeking asylum into remote island death camps so maybe that isn't the best comparison to make, extremely woke podcast guy
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Mar 7, 2017 21:29
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I understand there is no immediate solution to problems because the dems, being insanely bad, have an entrenched interest in seeing nothing change to the point they would rather see all of Latin America turned into helots at nuke point rather than have more capital gains taxes, so actual leftism needs to covertly gestate in its guts until by the time it feels it's stomach grumble it is already too late and leftism explodes from it like a chestburster in a hail of hammers and sickles to spray a fat load of acid in capital's face Namaste
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Mar 7, 2017 21:32
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"Baby, you know I love your coffee... I mean, your innate humanity, aw baby don't go!"
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Mar 7, 2017 21:34
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Fullhouse posted:last I checked Australia sticks people seeking asylum into remote island death camps so maybe that isn't the best comparison to make, extremely woke podcast guy the australian government think that if they make conditions so bad people will stop trying to get in not realising that the news of how poo poo the death camps are never makes it back to where the refugees are coming from
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Mar 7, 2017 21:38
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Jose posted:the australian government think that if they make conditions so bad people will stop trying to get in not realising that the news of how poo poo the death camps are never makes it back to where the refugees are coming from Except as far as I know illegal arrivals by boat have ceased nearly completely since Australia implemented that policy? I don't read much about Australia but from what I've heard their policy has been completely successful, unless those migrants are now just flying in and overstaying tourist visas or something, which I doubt.
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Mar 7, 2017 23:12
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Nah they just stopped reporting about them
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Mar 8, 2017 01:46
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LinYutang posted:if your wife has a tough time getting a job with a CS degree she has far deeper problems BedBuglet posted:As someone who graduated during the Obama presidency with a CS degree, I call so much BS on this. I had a selection of 6 offers before I'd even gotten my diploma. There is no reality in which someone with a CS degree is struggling to find a job because of H1Bs unless you live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. It's not merely about being able to find a job, but lower wages and working conditions too because your boss can just can your rear end whenever he wants and replace you with an eager Indian. I hear there's a ton of extremely gruelling CS jobs with insane hours and awful conditions/workload for the salary and benefits you get.
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Mar 8, 2017 08:33
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Trumpenproletariat posted:It's not merely about being able to find a job, but lower wages and working conditions too because your boss can just ive heard this too, actually im just not sure it can be solved by shutting off h1b visas the supply demand claims of employers vis a vis employment are not in good faith there are 300 million American citizens in this country, so there is no dearth of employees or production, just cheap capitalists
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Mar 8, 2017 08:52
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Imo absolutely everyone should get minimum wage at least, and there should be no "special" minimum wages. Prisoners should get minimum wage for whatever state they live in, and farm workers, and retarded people in protected workplaces, and restaurant servers. If not more Also minimum wage should be a living wage This would have a huge positive impact on people's lives as well as the economy imo
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Mar 8, 2017 09:26
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Minimum basic income, tbh.
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Mar 8, 2017 09:39
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ScrubLeague posted:Minimum basic income, tbh. true, but hint, they and my party will never agree to this
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Mar 8, 2017 10:15
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Jose posted:the australian government think that if they make conditions so bad people will stop trying to get in not realising that the news of how poo poo the death camps are never makes it back to where the refugees are coming from The AU government disseminates propaganda in several countries warning people not to come by boat, here's a photo of one such billboard at the scene of a race-targeted terrorist attack in Pakistan that killed 40+ people:  Squalid posted:Except as far as I know illegal arrivals by boat have ceased nearly completely since Australia implemented that policy? I don't read much about Australia but from what I've heard their policy has been completely successful, unless those migrants are now just flying in and overstaying tourist visas or something, which I doubt. Seeking asylum by boat was not and still is not illegal, the real number of people coming by boat was and is tiny and the arrivals have only stopped insomuch as the government changed the way they calculate the numbers in a way to let them ignore or lie about arrivals in whichever manner they choose.
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Mar 8, 2017 10:24
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ScrubLeague posted:Minimum basic income, tbh. people are so lovely about each other this will be a struggle to get it working
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Mar 8, 2017 10:28
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Jose posted:people are so lovely about each other this will be a struggle to get it working Which is a bummer because it's one of two ways forward from this point in history, the other being "mass death", because the need for labor is never going to stop declining
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Mar 8, 2017 11:05
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Jose posted:people are so lovely about each other this will be a struggle to get it working Appoint the IRS or CBO to establish a commission whose members are secret to meet behind closed doors and determine what the annual level should be, require ratification prior to any congressional compensation bills. Easy peasy. If we get paid, they get paid. This replaces most welfare programs for the mentally and physically able, and will cost substantially less than letting the states decide to gently caress it up in the name of politics.
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Mar 8, 2017 11:14
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:The AU government disseminates propaganda in several countries warning people not to come by boat, here's a photo of one such billboard at the scene of a race-targeted terrorist attack in Pakistan that killed 40+ people: Pshh, that photo was obviously set up for a scene from a movie or something. Real life doesn't have multiple awesome motorbikes burning in the street and cool swirly blood patterns
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Mar 8, 2017 11:27
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wizard on a water slide posted:Which is a bummer because it's one of two ways forward from this point in history, the other being "mass death", because the need for labor is never going to stop declining lol, when people choose mass death; one can't account for foolishness, amirite?
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Mar 8, 2017 11:37
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wizard on a water slide posted:Which is a bummer because it's one of two ways forward from this point in history, the other being "mass death", because the need for labor is never going to stop declining Lol you know the choice is gonna be mass death
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Mar 8, 2017 11:50
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Trumpenproletariat posted:Also, Trump's action on H1B visas since he took office ensures that my wife who is currently studying for a computer science degree might actually get a job that lets her pay off her massive student loans instead of being kept in a reserve army of labor because it's cheaper to import someone from an impoverished country to work for $30k a year. Maybe your idiot wife should have picked a career that can't be done by foreigners?
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Mar 8, 2017 15:09
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