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Thanks to recent massive scandals involving Russia, Trump has just stumbled into perhaps a bigger political scandal than Watergate. Two of his cabinet members have already stepped down, and it hasn't even been a month into Trump's presidency. And he continues to alienate himself from not only Democrats but Republicans and Independents as well. So I have a question to make: If Trump were to be impeached within a year or two, would Mike Pence make a better or worse president than Trump? In what ways, in your opinion, would he be better? In what ways would he be worse? What would his domestic and foreign policies look like? In addition, would Democrats fare better in 2018 against Trump or against Pence? In 2020?
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Feb 16, 2017 01:14
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| # ? Apr 20, 2024 01:33 |
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Dem's wanting to win the presidency in 2020 are way better off with Trump. Pence is scary because he will actually be able to compose himself and function as a president. He'll be able to make deals and pass laws very similar to Trump, but do so in ways that aren't as insane. All the poo poo that people aren't really out in the streets over, dismantling the EPA, de-regulating everything ever and poo poo like that will go through in ways that will make them even less obvious and people will be paying less attention.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:20
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I'm not sure I agree that Pence would be worse for Dems than Trump. Pence can't rabble rouse the same way that Trump did during the campaign because he doesn't have Trump's magical ability to sell people bullshit.
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Feb 16, 2017 01:23
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If pence really really wanted to do anything right now I can't really imagine that donald trump is stopping him.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:28
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Pence will at least bring us back down to a Dubya-era authoritarianism instead of overdoing it
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Feb 16, 2017 02:32
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The odds of Pence starting an unnecessary war costing the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions is approximately zero, so that's one point for Pence. The odds of Pence getting in a pissing contest with a nuclear power and starting a proper world war 3 is also approximately zero, so that's two for Pence. They'll both make enough inroads in Congress to ruin the Supreme Court for decades and pass insane quantities of backwards moving legisltation, so I guess they're tied on that point. In all, I'd say Pence would be better than Trump.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:46
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Cheekio posted:The odds of Pence starting an unnecessary war costing the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions is approximately zero, so that's one point for Pence. Pretty much the point I was going to make. Pence is awful and sucks, but Trump is a literal insane person.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:48
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Keep in mind if it's not Trump on the ballot in 2020 there'll be ~40% of the republican voters who will be howling for blood.
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Feb 16, 2017 02:56
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You're asking the wrong question. Pence would be a more competent and generic Republican than Trump, which is bad in some ways and possibly good in others. But the real issue would be to what's left of the American governments perceived legitimacy. The long-term political impact of removing Trump through impeachment is impossible to anticipate but it would probably make the political atmosphere of the last decade look like a hippy drum circle by comparison. And it would really emphasize who is the servant and who the master in the relationship between the President and the unelected Washington security bureaucracy. No decent person would mourn the end of the Trump presidency but removing him creates a new set of challenges that the American government and political class is in a terrible position to address. Don't be surprised if people start dying at protests and some of those twitter doxxings start turning into targeted killings if the political temperatures rises past where it already is.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:02
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Trump has yet to show that he's anything more than a Republican rubber-stamp. Aside from the twitter game and social gaffes, I don't see a difference between the two right now.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:03
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Bip Roberts posted:Keep in mind if it's not Trump on the ballot in 2020 there'll be ~40% of the republican voters who will be howling for blood. If Trump goes down prepare yourself for 2020 Republican nominee Alex Jones.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:11
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Trump is blatantly horrible. Pence is polished evil, his awfulness is hidden by a thin veneer of traditional political responsibility. He'd be as awful as Trump, but in a different way, a way that might not create as much popular opposition, and therefore that might end up being worse.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:11
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Helsing posted:You're asking the wrong question. Pence would be a more competent and generic Republican than Trump, which is bad in some ways and possibly good in others. But the real issue would be to what's left of the American governments perceived legitimacy. This is a pretty scary question. There are so many big huge unanswered questions with this Russia thing that, if it does turn out it goes all the way to Trump there is going to need to be some serious investigations not just into Trump and his cabinet, but the actual general election vote and why none of this information was made public before Trump was elected.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:29
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There's a good chance that whatever would send Trump down had touched Pence too. Probably not active involvement, but knowing about it and not saying anything. Enter Paul Ryan. Ryan would be the pneumonia to the bowel cancer that is Pence, and the Ebola that is Trump.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:47
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The only way to get Trump out and Pence in is with Republican support. If Republicans betray the Trumpenproles, they're hosed in the long term because they need them to win elections. So Pence would be better than trump because that implies a GOP civil war.
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Feb 16, 2017 03:54
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That being said what are the chances currently that Trump will get impeached this year?
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Feb 16, 2017 04:27
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Grouchio posted:That being said what are the chances currently that Trump will get impeached this year? Definitely a no one knows situation.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:28
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I'm not convinced this scandal will stick. If there isn't more fire in the next few days to go along with all this smoke, it'll blow over, and the media will move on. I would take Pence over Trump. I can live with Pence, I can disagree with Pence and fight him politically, and I can presume Pence doesn't have ill intent toward the republic. Trump is a danger to our democracy and to the world.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:42
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Grouchio posted:That being said what are the chances currently that Trump will get impeached this year? Depends on what more comes to light in the next few days and weeks. Currently, there's not enough. Impeachment requires the votes of 67 senators, and that's not happening unless Trumplethinskin becomes such a political liability that Republican senators are worries about their own skins. If proof emerges that Trump is in Putin's pocket, all bets are off. True believers will believe in ternative facts, naturally, but there's a line somewhere.
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Feb 16, 2017 04:43
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The only thing that will get Trump impeached is if he's personally implicated in something that's blatantly illegal and a serious crime like direct evidence that he was somehow involved in the DNC hacks. He will never get impeached for self-enrichment, and it doesn't matter if his entire cabinet is embroiled in scandal if there isn't something that can be directly pinned on Trump. The catch is that there's still a very good possibility that he'll do something like that.
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Feb 16, 2017 05:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Trump is blatantly horrible. Pence is polished evil, his awfulness is hidden by a thin veneer of traditional political responsibility. He'd be as awful as Trump, but in a different way, a way that might not create as much popular opposition, and therefore that might end up being worse. This. Trump being such a chaotic mess means people notice the rot.
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Feb 16, 2017 06:01
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OneEightHundred posted:The only thing that will get Trump impeached is if he's personally implicated in something that's blatantly illegal and a serious crime like direct evidence that he was somehow involved in the DNC hacks. He will never get impeached for self-enrichment, and it doesn't matter if his entire cabinet is embroiled in scandal if there isn't something that can be directly pinned on Trump.
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Feb 16, 2017 08:05
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Pence would actively persecute anyone who isn't straight or cis, unlike Trump. Of course he's worse.
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Feb 16, 2017 13:07
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If Pence is also caught up in scandal and forced to resign, who will be president?
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Feb 16, 2017 13:13
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Errm, is this a trick question? It goes to Paul Ryan.
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Feb 16, 2017 13:26
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We should be so lucky.
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Feb 16, 2017 13:26
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twoday posted:If Pence is also caught up in scandal and forced to resign, who will be president? If Pence is VP, Trump will find a different one.
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Feb 16, 2017 14:45
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twoday posted:If Pence is also caught up in scandal and forced to resign, who will be president? If Trump and Pence are both out simultaneously, then it goes to the Speaker of the House of Representative, Paul Ryan. If the top three are out together, then it's the President pro tempore of the Senate, currently Orrin Hatch. These four are all taken out for some reason? Then you go to the Secretary of State, who is now Rexxon Tillerson. If the top five men were to all be indisposed, it'd be the Secretary of the Treasury. And so on. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 15:00
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Doorknob Slobber posted:Dem's wanting to win the presidency in 2020 are way better off with Trump.
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Feb 16, 2017 15:58
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It's basically choosing between an unpleasant ordinary disease that has a high survival rate (Pence), and some exotic strain of cancer that has a low survival rate (Trump). Like, Pence is Real Bad, but it's a form of real bad that America has survived basically since its inception. Trump really is sui generis in modern American political history. I don't see the hypothetical ousting of Trump as a big win for Republicans though. Pence is "clean" and "normal" only in contrast with Trump, while also having the charisma of a wheel of cheese gone slightly green. And of course all the alt-right vermin will be apoplectic about the GOP stabbing them in the back. It's not like Gerald Ford being an affable generic Republican saved the GOP from the fallout of Watergate or something. Jimmy Carter had the political acumen of kelp and beat him.
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Feb 16, 2017 16:46
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depends, pence is more likely to kill social security and medicare (how much more though is a good question cuz trump seems to be signing onto every other one of paul ryan's shock therapy plan) but in every other respect economically he's indistinguishable from Trump (tax cuts/deregulation/Obamacare repeal) cuz Trump can't get his infrastructure project through congress anyway. on foreign policy he's better cuz he isn't a Russian Manchurian candidate and is less stupid and might turn out to be less hawkish than trump Typo fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 16:49
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Grouchio posted:That being said what are the chances currently that Trump will get impeached this year? betting markets are like 80/20 on him staying in office for the year
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Feb 16, 2017 16:54
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I'd rather not think in terms of "what's good for winning elections" but "what's good for society and the world" and I think Pence is better for that. While Pence would absolutely want to roll back protections for LGBTQ+ citizens, possibly kill of medicare, I don't think he would ever consider using our nukes for the fun of it like Trump would. I also don't think the MAGA Republicans would fall apart if Trump was impeached and refuse to vote next election (cause yeah, they're not going to vote Democratic, no matter what). They would still vote Pence in 2020 if they had to.
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Feb 16, 2017 17:02
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sean10mm posted:It's basically choosing between an unpleasant ordinary disease that has a high survival rate (Pence), and some exotic strain of cancer that has a low survival rate (Trump). Like, Pence is Real Bad, but it's a form of real bad that America has survived basically since its inception. Trump really is sui generis in modern American political history.
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Feb 19, 2017 08:36
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Inferior Third Season posted:This sounds familiar... like something I've heard before... perhaps in a dream... And if we shadows have offended Then think but this, and all is mended That you have but slumbered here While these visions did appear
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Feb 19, 2017 08:45
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If Trump is impeached the Republicans blow their electoral chances for the next few cycles because the Trump base will be royally pissed at the regular Republicans in Congress. As such, they aren't going to impeach Trump without indisputable, hard proof of bribery or blackmail from Russian intelligence, which almost certainly isn't going to happen. That said, President Pence is probably on balance worse than Trump, because President Pence would be more competent at coordinated Republican attacks on basic government functions and minorities. Whether or not Pence would have the public support after an impeachment hearing to do anything like that is up in the air, but that aside, President Pence is, however, better than President Bannon. Take that for what you will.
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Feb 19, 2017 10:13
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Holy poo poo you idiots of course Pence would be better than Trump. Even on a basic level, we wouldn't be paying to jet Trump and his idiot adult children around the world or 150k per day to secure Trump tower in NYC.
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Feb 19, 2017 14:04
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twitter and bisted posted:If Trump goes down prepare yourself for 2020 Republican nominee Alex Jones.  Based on how 'extreme' Trump's views were compared to other candidates and how they apparently resonated with the greater public, I feel like that's actually going to happen.
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Feb 19, 2017 16:49
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seiferguy posted:I'd rather not think in terms of "what's good for winning elections" but "what's good for society and the world" and I think Pence is better for that. While Pence would absolutely want to roll back protections for LGBTQ+ citizens, possibly kill of medicare, I don't think he would ever consider using our nukes for the fun of it like Trump would. I don't know about that. He's almost certainly a Dominionist.
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Feb 19, 2017 17:57
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Lightning Knight posted:If Trump is impeached the Republicans blow their electoral chances for the next few cycles because the Trump base will be royally pissed at the regular Republicans in Congress. As such, they aren't going to impeach Trump without indisputable, hard proof of bribery or blackmail from Russian intelligence, which almost certainly isn't going to happen. If trump's base is so strong they will replace all those regular republicans anyway so what would they care?
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Feb 19, 2017 18:43
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