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twerking on the railroad posted:Holy poo poo you idiots of course Pence would be better than Trump. Even on a basic level, we wouldn't be paying to jet Trump and his idiot adult children around the world or 150k per day to secure Trump tower in NYC. Pretty much. We'd simply get generic Republican evil versus what the gently caress we have right now.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:15
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Pence is the devil we know. Added bonus: if the bigots felt Trump was pushed out, it would fracture the GOP.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:18
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I legit worry that Evangelical killbot Pence will figure he has a mandate to rapturize America if Trump gets impeached. For all the talk about him being "generic Republican evil" he isn't just some guy who likes low taxes.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:36
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Im very concerned that noted necromancer Pence will take his ascension to the pheonix throne as a divine mandate to corrupt the people of the kingdom into terrifying, immortal moon ghouls and shroud the land in eternal twilight
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Feb 19, 2017 19:40
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Cheekio posted:The odds of Pence starting an unnecessary war costing the lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions is approximately zero, so that's one point for Pence. This. I mean, an empty suit Republican would never start a forever war in the Middle East due to wars of choice. Nor would he seriously discuss using theater nuclear weapons as bunker busters to get at the Cobra Commander base deep in a high tech cave. Pence is a known and the known parts of Pence are bad all the way down. Trump is an unknown. He's a total disaster but given the choice between "known, completely irredeemably awful" and "unknown trending towards completely irredeemably awful" I'll take the latter over the former.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:42
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Calibanibal posted:Im very concerned that noted necromancer Pence will take his ascension to the pheonix throne as a divine mandate to corrupt the people of the kingdom into terrifying, immortal moon ghouls and shroud the land in eternal twilight Make fun all you like but Pence is a known Dominionist and their belief system is straight up "Left Behind but less cool" Just because the man isn't prone to unhinged screaming doesn't mean he's just going to be David Frum.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:51
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The worry with a Pence Presidency is that all the idiot "serious grown-up" liberals who seem to value nothing as highly in life as bipartisan politics will view Pence as a serious grown-up politician who they can collaborate with. Despite the fact that he's perfectly terrifying in his own way. Although I do tend to expect the worse from liberals so maybe they wouldn't.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:53
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"Pence is better than Trump. We want the office of President to have legitimacy again so that it's easier to pass GOP policy." --Something Awful Posters, TYOOL 2017 Rahm Emmanuel was right when he said Liberals were loving retarded.
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Feb 19, 2017 19:55
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Doesn't Pence want to put the LGBT community in internment camps and shock-therapy the gay out of them?
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Feb 19, 2017 20:05
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I have never seen pence advocate necromancy or a forced apocalypse but if he has then he is more dangerous than i thought
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Feb 19, 2017 20:07
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Pence would be so much better it's not even close. He'd definitely be more effective and might ban weed or gay abortions or something but priority number one should be preserving democratic institutions so that all the bullshit could be undone and fixed later. Trump seems to be way happier to poo poo on the courts and media and anyone who doesn't dance to his tune, and if he manages to convince enough people that his narrative is the only truth, poo poo could get really bad.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:15
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mobby_6kl posted:Pence would be so much better it's not even close. He'd definitely be more effective and might ban weed or gay abortions or something but priority number one should be preserving democratic institutions so that all the bullshit could be undone and fixed later. Trump seems to be way happier to poo poo on the courts and media and anyone who doesn't dance to his tune, and if he manages to convince enough people that his narrative is the only truth, poo poo could get really bad. Democratic institutions are going to get eroded either way. You don't think Pence and Betsy DeVos would get along? You don't know what the gently caress you're talking about.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:19
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Huzanko posted:"Pence is better than Trump. We want the office of President to have legitimacy again so that it's easier to pass GOP policy." --Something Awful Posters, TYOOL 2017 To say nothing of the fact that we have well passed the stage where someone can say to Trump "you're not the president anymore" and nothing at all goes wrong. That point, of course, was election day, yet it should be blindingly obvious now that an attempt to remove the 45th would end in blood.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:22
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mobby_6kl posted:preserving democratic institutions Senate and House of Representatives both have incumbent re-election rates of 80% to 90%. Empirical research shows that the opinions of Americans at the 50th income percentile have virtually no impact on government policy whereas the preference of lobby groups and Americans in the 90th percentile do. Elected officials spend most of their time in office fundraising for re-election. Nobody trusts the media. Barely a third of US citizens can name all three branches of government, and a third of American citizens cannot name a single branch. Oh, and the National Security bureaucracy established by President Truman to fight in the Cold War in the late 1940s now has significantly greater impact on policy than the decisions of elected officials. You are delusional if you think there's anything left to preserve or that the conflict over Trump is about national security, democratic legitimacy or anything other than a factional struggle over who gets the spoils.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:37
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Shbobdb posted:I mean, an empty suit Republican would never start a forever war in the Middle East due to wars of choice. Where were you in 2001-2008?
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Feb 19, 2017 20:44
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Honestly, the second there is a scent of impeachment over collusion, there should be a push for Pence to step down.It makes no sense for a candidate attached to a corrupt campaign to be President. President Ryan wouldn't be better either, but he's also a weak-rear end candidate. Biden loving mopped the floor with him during the 2012 debates, he honestly doesn't come off strong in interviews, and the notion of him being the reasonable and smart Republican falls apart once you actually look at his politics. He's really not made for a national stage. His disconnect from 2016 and place among establishment Republicans would also mean he'd be unlikely to be primaried in 2020 where as I could see Kasich or even Cruz or Rubio coming in and stealing the nomination from Pence. I am very much of the mind that the Republican Party is the bigger enemy than Trump. But with that said, Nationalism is a scary thing. A victorious Trump presidency also means people like Huckabee or Palin seeing a path to the White House. And I'm going to err on the side of that being bad. EDIT: We also need to consider the fact that a 2020 election with a losing Trump might force us to face a scenario of the President of the United States refusing to concede which is much more damaging in my mind than impeachment.
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Feb 19, 2017 20:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If trump's base is so strong they will replace all those regular republicans anyway so what would they care? Because the MAGA crowd isn't a perfect circle on the Venn diagram with the Tea Party, and they don't have the institutional and corporate backing to enact major primary challenges. Look at the primary challenge against Paul Ryan. More likely, they just stay home and Republicans in gerrymandered districts suffer a wave election.
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Feb 19, 2017 21:44
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Cat Mattress posted:Where were you in 2001-2008? 
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Feb 19, 2017 21:52
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Sorry! Sometimes it's hard to tell.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:06
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The only difference between a Trump presidency and a Pence/Ryan presidency is Trump's doing things faster and louder.
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Feb 20, 2017 08:27
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Lightning Lord posted:Definitely a no one knows situation. I doubt if a case for impeachment can be constructed and made ready for presentation to the Senate this year, even if they started working on it today. I think it's more likely that establishment Republicans will pressure Trump into resigning this year or next. If he won't go quietly, they'll green-light impeachment proceedings. TheImmigrant posted:Depends on what more comes to light in the next few days and weeks. Currently, there's not enough. Impeachment requires the votes of 67 senators, and that's not happening unless Trumplethinskin becomes such a political liability that Republican senators are worries about their own skins. If the Senate votes along party lines for impeachment, they'd only need about 20 Republicans to vote alongside Senate Democrats. That would be enough for a conviction. Grouchio posted:Doesn't Pence want to put the LGBT community in internment camps and shock-therapy the gay out of them? Yes, he advocates defunding HIV research and using the government's money instead for "conversion therapy." People like him really believe that gays live a tortured existence with their "unwanted same-sex attractions," and are desperate for a way out of the "lifestyle."
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Feb 20, 2017 09:23
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King Possum III posted:Yes, he advocates defunding HIV research and using the government's money instead for "conversion therapy." People like him really believe that gays live a tortured existence with their "unwanted same-sex attractions," and are desperate for a way out of the "lifestyle." Countdown till a photo of him enjoying "unwanted same-sex attractions" in a gay bar emerges started.
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Feb 20, 2017 10:14
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Despite everything, I don't believe in a Trumpeachment. Everything about Trump was known when the Electoral College made their decision. If you impeach Trump, you go against the wishes of the Grand Electors and their infinite wisdom and their absolutely necessary and indispensable role in democracy.
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Feb 20, 2017 10:17
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Another big plus for Pence/Ryan is that they would likely kick Bannon and friends out of the WH. This could have the hilarious side effect of Bannon turning the Breitbart machine on the successor and weakening the party. I also think that if Trump is impeached/removed, Pence (and especially Ryan if Pence goes down as well) would be forced to govern closer to the center. The stink of Trump won't be washed away and people are watching closely, never mind the levels of republican in-fighting in congress. They won't have as easy a time slamming through republican dream bills as they would just having been elected outright.
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Feb 20, 2017 10:46
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It depends if you're speaking globally or domestically. Domestically, you'd have to think Trump is (marginally) better, at least on a civil rights front - he's less likely to fervently persecute the LGBTI community, ban abortions, etc. like Pence would. However, globally speaking, I trust Pence not to get me nuked infinitely more than I trust Trump. Even if Pence does lovely things to civil rights and institutions in the US, they can be undone. You can't un-nuke somewhere, or un-start a war with a close ally, which I'd be pretty close to putting money on being an eventual outcome of a Trump presidency. I don't think anyone is arguing Pence would be good, but I trust him way more not to get me killed over some stupid perceived slight, or something dumb, so I'll have to go with the option where I'm less likely to die.
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Feb 20, 2017 14:46
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Cat Mattress posted:Despite everything, I don't believe in a Trumpeachment. Everything about Trump was known when the Electoral College made their decision. If you impeach Trump, you go against the wishes of the Grand Electors and their infinite wisdom and their absolutely necessary and indispensable role in democracy. Really 2016 showed that the electors part of the EC is absolutely pointless. I have no faith they would vote against anyone so whatever safeguard they are supposed to be doing is obviously not going to happen. If we are keeping the asinine electoral college they might as well just instantly award the points instead of having people actually vote based on the state elections. The fact that not one voted against Trump is just another mark against our absolutely poo poo system of government.
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Feb 20, 2017 15:08
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Blind Pineapple posted:Another big plus for Pence/Ryan is that they would likely kick Bannon and friends out of the WH. This could have the hilarious side effect of Bannon turning the Breitbart machine on the successor and weakening the party. Like how W governed from the center after he stole his first election using the Supreme Court and stole his second one using Diebold? No, "I have political capital and I am going to spend it!" was his position. LOL. Republicans, let alone an ideologue like Ryan, "governing more towards the center".
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Feb 20, 2017 19:03
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Some of the things people are saying in this thread are so stupid that they remind me of that ancient D&D thread from 2002 or 2003 where people were encouraged to write their predictions about how the Iraq War would turn out.
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Feb 20, 2017 19:04
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Shbobdb posted:LOL. Republicans, let alone an ideologue like Ryan, "governing more towards the center". I don't think he would want to, I just don't see the political climate being favorable to doing much else. The party would be tainted by the memory of Trump no matter what, the cat's out of the bag with things like Obamacare, and there would surely be some infighting and lots of republicans going into business for themselves during and after impeachment proceedings. It's not "Pence/Ryan sees the error the party's ways and changes course," it's more "everything is so bogged down and people are too engaged for them to deviate too far from the status quo." In fairness, the status quo could be quite terrible if/when we get to impeachment.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:28
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That known reasonable centrist, Mike Pence
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Feb 20, 2017 21:31
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After the unmitigated failure of W, the Tea Party provided a breath of fresh air by trying to govern from the center.
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Feb 20, 2017 21:50
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Whitlam posted:It depends if you're speaking globally or domestically. Domestically, you'd have to think Trump is (marginally) better, at least on a civil rights front - he's less likely to fervently persecute the LGBTI community, ban abortions, etc. like Pence would. I don't know that we'd get much more of a swing at LGBT+ rights in the next four years beyond that First Amendment Defense Act (which is undoubtedly coming out of a Republican congress regardless of which fool is president) even if Pence is president, or at least the 'LGB' part of that equation. The sense I get is that the anti-gay rhetoric coming out of federal Republican leadership is more lip service than "thing they really, really, really want to do" (besides, again, FADA), and they're much more focused right now on loving over everyone but the white rich in general and MUSLIMS/IMMIGRANTS in particular. The popular tide in the US has tilted in favor of mostly leaving the LGBT+ community alone because everything else is on fire, and I don't think Pence would have enough 'mandate' to push hard for anything firmer than FADA by himself. (And if he takes office because congress impeached Trump and had him removed, there's probably gonna be a bajillion other things falling the gently caress apart in the immediate future for him to demand a hard 'gently caress the Gays' stance from the federal govt.)
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Feb 20, 2017 22:17
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King Possum III posted:Yes, he advocates defunding HIV research and using the government's money instead for "conversion therapy." People like him really believe that gays live a tortured existence with their "unwanted same-sex attractions," and are desperate for a way out of the "lifestyle." It's weird, because it's never been clear if he meant that or just was saying other lovely republican opinions. Like he said they should defund AIDS treatment until the government stopped funding the behavior that spreads AIDS and people jumped to that meaning "being gay", and it might well be that he meant that but it's a reach and he might just mean stuff like "giving out condoms" using the good old lovely republican logic that always thinks condoms increases sex or whatever.
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Feb 20, 2017 22:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's weird, because it's never been clear if he meant that or just was saying other lovely republican opinions. Like he said they should defund AIDS treatment until the government stopped funding the behavior that spreads AIDS and people jumped to that meaning "being gay", and it might well be that he meant that but it's a reach and he might just mean stuff like "giving out condoms" using the good old lovely republican logic that always thinks condoms increases sex or whatever. Por que no los dos?
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Feb 20, 2017 22:28
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's weird, because it's never been clear if he meant that or just was saying other lovely republican opinions. Like he said they should defund AIDS treatment until the government stopped funding the behavior that spreads AIDS and people jumped to that meaning "being gay", and it might well be that he meant that but it's a reach and he might just mean stuff like "giving out condoms" using the good old lovely republican logic that always thinks condoms increases sex or whatever. No, it's well known that he despises gay people, and the conversion therapy thing is only one example. His track record as governor of IN is ample proof he's every bit as homophobic as Cruz or Huckabee. I wish there was a way be rid of him before Trump goes. Maybe a sudden heart attack?
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Feb 20, 2017 23:36
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Grouchio posted:Remind me to look into why Jimmy had the political acumen of kelp, and how he hosed up so much. Start with his utter inability to work with a congress controlled by his own party. Then read about basically anything he did concerning Iran. He was way better than Reagan, but there is a weird nostalgia for Carter that isn't really warranted by his job performance.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:07
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Wasn't it Lindsay Graham who, when asked to compare Ted Cruz or Donald Trump, compared it to being shot or poisoned? Is this not the same as comparing Trump to Pence?
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Feb 21, 2017 00:14
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Shbobdb posted:After the unmitigated failure of W, the Tea Party provided a breath of fresh air by trying to govern from the center. No, the political climate in the wake of W's failure got a lot of democrats voted in, who tried to govern from the center. The Tea Party was formed as a (uninformed, racist) response to Obama, and didn't gain any real governing power until a couple years into his term. They weren't taking the reins directly from Bush during the 08 financial collapse, which would probably look insignificant compared to whatever disaster it would take to get Trump removed a decade of bitter, resentful partisanship later.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:30
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come to think of it, if trump loses 2020 and don't concede, what happens? does the secret service or the police have to drag him out of the whitehouse or something? what happens if he just flies to trump tower in NYC and declares an alternative government?
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Feb 21, 2017 00:31
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Blind Pineapple posted:No, the political climate in the wake of W's failure got a lot of democrats voted in, who tried to govern from the center. The Tea Party was formed as a (uninformed, racist) response to Obama, and didn't gain any real governing power until a couple years into his term. They weren't taking the reins directly from Bush during the 08 financial collapse, which would probably look insignificant compared to whatever disaster it would take to get Trump removed a decade of bitter, resentful partisanship later. The resentments among the far right that led to the Tea Party started during Bush's administration, largely because they saw the Bush Republicans as being too moderate. They were willing to put up with the party running boring moderate after boring moderate as long as they kept winning, but as soon as the GOP lost an election - to a black former community organizer whose middle name was Hussein, no less - the fringes started claiming it was the natural result of the GOP's lack of ideological purity and started demanding purges. It's pretty similar to what's going on now with the left. The only real difference is that in the case of the Tea Party, wealthy media magnates started pouring money into the movement in hopes of harnessing that populist anger to fulfill their own conservative plans.
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Feb 21, 2017 00:44
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