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DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

Republican legislators in my increasingly hosed up state want to bring back the death penalty. They are all dumb and evil and I hate them, but lets go into why the death penalty is hosed up and lovely.

1). It's Expensive! Why, if they're in jail for less time, is it more expensive to put someone on death row? Court costs. Death penalty cases generally take longer and cost more than non-death penalty cases, and the appeals process increases the cost difference between the two.

2). It's unfair! The death penalty is given to minorities more often than it is given to white people, often because white people tend to be richer and richer people can afford better attorneys and better attorneys know how to keep people off death row.

3). It's not a deterrent! There's absolutely no evidence that the death penalty works as a deterrent against committing capital offenses, and in fact the murder rate in states without the death penalty tends to be lower than in states with the death penalty.

4). States keep getting sued because of it! Nebraska and Texas have both been sued because they bought or attempted to buy the drugs used in lethal injection from unnamed, often shady sources, and the most recent cases brought to the Supreme Court have been because the drugs they use

5). We are literally the only country in America (North and South) or Europe that executes people! Except Belarus but gently caress them. We're behind only China, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia in number of executions and we don't want to be like those countries now do we?

6). Public Opinion of it is dropping! At one point, a little over 20 years ago, 80% of America was in favor of the death penalty. That's dropped to 60% as of this year, which is as low as it has been since Nixon was in office.

7). Innocent people might die! There are plenty of cases of new evidence being found that exonerates people sitting on death row, and there are a small number of instances where there was evidence that could have exonerated someone who was executed by the state. I repeat: HOLY loving poo poo THE STATE KILLED PEOPLE FOR A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT THAT IS hosed UP

8). Jesus loving Christ We Should Not Kill People In The Name Of Justice. Jesus loving Christ we should not kill people in the name of justice.

9). Seriously "Thou Shall Not Kill" Is In The 10 loving Commandments Jesus would totally not be in favor of the death penalty, especially considering his entire life and work.

gently caress you, Iowa Republicans, keep your lovely justice by murder fetish out of my state.

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Calibanibal
Aug 25, 2015

The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

Calibanibal posted:

The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs

ok George Carlin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDO6HV6xTmI

Great Metal Jesus
Jun 11, 2007

Got no use for psychiatry
I can talk to the voices
in my head for free
Mood swings like an axe
Into those around me
My tongue is a double agent

Calibanibal posted:

The problem is the attempts to deritualize it and decommunalize it. Executions were an important and exciting part of traditional community life and they brought people together in fear and hate and thirst for violent retribution. Put the death penalty back in the public square where it belongs

Make the death penalty great again.

We're going to build a guillotine and make France pay for it.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
Yeah it sucks, we should take it away. People get loving bloodthirsty if you suggest that, though. I vividly remember a conversation where someone got really upset that there's such a thing as "murderer's row" and that anyone given the death penalty should die immediately.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN
Just eliminate the appeals process, that should make the whole process much more economical. And to make it more ecumenical lets extend it to major white collar crimes. That's what I can an economenical solution.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
I think there should be a big cartoon hammer that squishes the defendant right in the courtroom.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN
I was thinking a big trap door right underneath the defendants chair. If their lawyer accidentally falls in along with them then no great loss.

Edit - On second thought I could get into this

Helsing fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 25, 2017

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Great Metal Jesus posted:

Make the death penalty great again.

We're going to build a guillotine and make France pay for it.

Fun trivia, the guillotine was the only legal method of execution in France, and was used until 1977 (they abolished the death penalty there in IIRC 1981?). However they hadn't had a public execution since the 30s because of how super hype and thrilled with bloodlust people would get from it.

Kehveli
Apr 1, 2009

Push It Like You Push Your Girlfriend
In Europe generally that's how it's gone, where it goes unused for decades if not more until it's removed from the books (except for treason in time of war or something to that nature generally).

The more I learn about forensics and the US criminal courts the scarier having death penalty on the books is. I wouldn't be that surprised if the actual amount of innocent people executed was much higher than estimated.

stone cold
Feb 15, 2014

Kehveli posted:

I wouldn't be that surprised if the actual amount of innocent people executed was much higher than estimated.

It definitely is. The fact that we still have it on the books is one of the things that makes me very viscerally ashamed to be an American.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

You're also really bad at it, despite how many people you kill.

Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



DC Murderverse posted:

7). Innocent people might die! There are plenty of cases of new evidence being found that exonerates people sitting on death row, and there are a small number of instances where there was evidence that could have exonerated someone who was executed by the state. I repeat: HOLY loving poo poo THE STATE KILLED PEOPLE FOR A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT THAT IS hosed UP

This is the really important point, I feel. Innocent people die from being executed, and the thing is that America is not a country that just executes on a whim. The death penalty is actually enacted only after an enormous amount of work has been done to not only establish guilt, but to establish it sufficiently to justify execution, and the exact reason people spend forever on Death Row is because they are entitled to a great many efforts to demonstrate innocence, or at least to demonstrate extenuating circumstances that justify commuting the sentence. (I am aware of the many, many problems in the justice system that make this imperfectly true at best, but bear with me)

And innocent people are still executed. If you can't rely on a legal system as rigorous as the one prevailing in Europe and North America, you can't have faith in the death penalty. All that work, all those appeals, and innocent people have still gone to the chair. Even if they have no other issues with it at all, anyone who is willing to countenance the possibility of innocents being executed is a maniac who should have no say in matters of justice.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017

The death penalty is horrible and I'm glad my governor finally put a hold on it in my state.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005
edit: wrong forum

Zedsdeadbaby
Jun 14, 2008

You have been called out, in the ways of old.
What I don't understand about the death penalty is the sheer number of pro-life proponents of it, they are against abortion because all life is sacred, yet their blood-curdling screams in favor of the death penalty is mystifying and of the worst order hypocritical.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Mister Adequate posted:

And innocent people are still executed. If you can't rely on a legal system as rigorous as the one prevailing in Europe and North America, you can't have faith in the death penalty. All that work, all those appeals, and innocent people have still gone to the chair. Even if they have no other issues with it at all, anyone who is willing to countenance the possibility of innocents being executed is a maniac who should have no say in matters of justice.
I think that is a rather facile argument. If your overriding concern is that no innocent party is ever harmed, the only logical conclusion is that the state should never use deadly force, even to pursue legitimate ends. I don't think this is compatible with the concept of a sovereign state. When you start talking about policy at the macro level, you have to accept some possibility of unintentional harm.

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

What I don't understand about the death penalty is the sheer number of pro-life proponents of it, they are against abortion because all life is sacred, yet their blood-curdling screams in favor of the death penalty is mystifying and of the worst order hypocritical.
It isn't hypocritical at all. For example, a person might object to a parent locking their child in a room and only letting them out briefly a few times per day to eat, exercise, and use the restroom, while at the same time accepting the right of the state to impose such a penalty on someone duly convicted of murder. Life being sacred isn't an absolute, just a default presumption unless forfeited.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
We probably shouldn't kill people.

Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer
its great if you want revenge

DoggPickle
Jan 16, 2004

LAFFO
I'm absolutely 100% behind complete evidence and FACTS. But isn't there at least SOMETIME where a person is so absolutely dark and hateful that you don't just have their confession, but you can see in their eyes that if they were released at some point (maybe 40 years) that they would immediately prey upon someone else? Just a loving terrible person who has killed and WOULD kill again if they had the chance?

I have NO problem with executing those people. And I think it's pretty obvious which people are on death row for being genuine creepy dicks or because of some racist political crap. That definitely needs to be sorted out by a reasonable person. It seems like I say that lightly, but it's not light.

We also need to fix the drug cocktail to just a whole bunch of morphine that makes your system shut down. I don't understand why there are all these complicated mixes, when you can quite easily kill someone Add to dictionary with plain old opium.

*edit the add to dictionary made me laugh so hard. I spelled quickly wrong*

falcon2424
May 2, 2005

DC Murderverse posted:

1). It's Expensive! Why, if they're in jail for less time, is it more expensive to put someone on death row? Court costs. Death penalty cases generally take longer and cost more than non-death penalty cases, and the appeals process increases the cost difference between the two.
I agree with the conclusion, but this seems like a horrible argument. The left should abandon it.

If the appeals are unnecessary, they should be dropped. If the appeals are necessary, they should be given to people who we're going to imprison for life.

As is, the argument is implying that you're OK with life-imprisonment for innocent people, because it saves you the expensive step of 'making sure they're guilty'

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel
It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017

hakimashou posted:

It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder.

Yes, it is.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel

Peachfart posted:

Yes, it is.

No it's not. If they didn't want to get executed they shouldn't have murdered somone.

Randler
Jan 3, 2013

ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

hakimashou posted:

It's not wrong to execute people who commit murder.

That does not mean that it is necessary to execute people who commit murder. It also does not adress the practical issues with executing people and in particular it still has the issue of the American justice system having extremely high false-positives when it comes to finding people guilty.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel

Randler posted:

That does not mean that it is necessary to execute people who commit murder. It also does not adress the practical issues with executing people and in particular it still has the issue of the American justice system having extremely high false-positives when it comes to finding people guilty.

Yeah I'm not saying we do a good job of it or should continue how we do it, but if a person really is guilty of murder, its not wrong if he is killed as punishment for it.

Zarkas
Feb 26, 2017

For the lulz
The death penalty is one of those tricky situations for me. I'd say about 90% of the time I'm against it, just on the principle that I feel it's wrong to end another person's life. But you get some really hosed up cases. One's like the dad that ate his son's eyes, or any of the other crazy and deranged poo poo that just seems like it came from a heart of pure evil. I still can't even say it'd be right to kill them, but I find myself leaning that way in such cases.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

Dead Reckoning posted:

I think that is a rather facile argument. If your overriding concern is that no innocent party is ever harmed, the only logical conclusion is that the state should never use deadly force, even to pursue legitimate ends. I don't think this is compatible with the concept of a sovereign state. When you start talking about policy at the macro level, you have to accept some possibility of unintentional harm.

Holy gently caress this is some alarming loving logic here. "Eh, gently caress it, some innocent people get executed, gotta break some eggs to make that justice omelet!"

How about we just don't execute people?

Calibanibal
Aug 25, 2015

its not wrong to sacrifice war captives to the sun deity Huitzilopochtli, that he may absorb their sanguine essence and save the world from the demons of The Endless Night

TheArmorOfContempt
Nov 29, 2012

Did I ever tell you my favorite color was blue?

WampaLord posted:

Holy gently caress this is some alarming loving logic here. "Eh, gently caress it, some innocent people get executed, gotta break some eggs to make that justice omelet!"

How about we just don't execute people?

Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too. Is it unreasonable to want extensive prison reform that greatly reduces the prison population, length of sentences, along with overall much more humane treatment and rehabilitation, while still wishing to see the Timothy McVeighs of the world get their proper comeuppance?

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017

Uroboros posted:

Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too. Is it unreasonable to want extensive prison reform that greatly reduces the prison population, length of sentences, along with overall much more humane treatment and rehabilitation, while still wishing to see the Timothy McVeighs of the world get their proper comeuppance?

Yes. Killing is wrong.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

Uroboros posted:

Because getting a life sentence while innocent in the lovely US Prison system is loving great too.

Yea but at least we didn't kill them. Also there exists the possibility the mistake will be corrected and they can be released.

No backsies after you fire up Ol' Sparky.

TheArmorOfContempt
Nov 29, 2012

Did I ever tell you my favorite color was blue?

WampaLord posted:

Yea but at least we didn't kill them. Also there exists the possibility the mistake will be corrected and they can be released.

No backsies after you fire up Ol' Sparky.

Seems like instituting higher standards of evidence could help as well. I'm unsure what it takes these days, but something as simple as requiring some form of physical evidence: DNA, film, etc as a prerequisite to receive a death penalty would be a good step. Anything that goes on eye-witness testimony alone should not be enough.

Peachfart posted:

Yes. Killing is wrong.

Why?

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel

Peachfart posted:

Yes. Killing is wrong.

It's not wrong to kill people who are guilty of murder though.

It's the golden rule.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017

If killing isn't wrong, why are we killing the killers? Since they did nothing wrong.
Do two wrongs make a right when we can't be 100% certain if the soon to be dead person actually committed the crime?

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel

Peachfart posted:

If killing isn't wrong, why are we killing the killers? Since they did nothing wrong.
Do two wrongs make a right when we can't be 100% certain if the soon to be dead person actually committed the crime?

When you commit murder you will yourself to be killed in turn, since by depriving someone else of his right to live you give up your own. "Treat others as you would wish to be treated."

Executing a criminal however is different, you're doing justice, as you'd want justice to be done to you, or for you, if you were yourself the victim of a murder. You aren't depriving the condemned murderer of his right to life, since he has already voluntarily relinquished it, and indeed solemnly willed his own death, by the act of murdering someone.

Since we want other people to treat us the way we treat them, ie, if we behave justly, we want to to be treated justly in return, we have an obligation to treat others the way they want to be treated as well.

And the only way to definitively know how someone wishes to be treated is to see how he treats others.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
Abolish the death penalty so that its opponents have to find something else to pat themselves on the back for.

sirtommygunn
Mar 7, 2013



You kill killers because you believe they will continue to kill, not because revenge will suddenly make things better. If you can stop the killing without killing the guy, there is no reason to kill the guy.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel

sirtommygunn posted:

You kill killers because you believe they will continue to kill, not because revenge will suddenly make things better. If you can stop the killing without killing the guy, there is no reason to kill the guy.

No consideration given to justice?

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Convergence
Apr 9, 2005

hakimashou posted:



And the only way to definitively know how someone wishes to be treated is to see how he treats others.

You have the moral sophistication of a second grader. So you're saying everyone who commits murder wishes to be killed? Really?

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