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I'm absolutely 100% behind complete evidence and FACTS. But isn't there at least SOMETIME where a person is so absolutely dark and hateful that you don't just have their confession, but you can see in their eyes that if they were released at some point (maybe 40 years) that they would immediately prey upon someone else? Just a loving terrible person who has killed and WOULD kill again if they had the chance? I have NO problem with executing those people. And I think it's pretty obvious which people are on death row for being genuine creepy dicks or because of some racist political crap. That definitely needs to be sorted out by a reasonable person. It seems like I say that lightly, but it's not light. We also need to fix the drug cocktail to just a whole bunch of morphine that makes your system shut down. I don't understand why there are all these complicated mixes, when you can quite easily kill someone Add to dictionary with plain old opium. *edit the add to dictionary made me laugh so hard. I spelled quickly wrong*
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Feb 26, 2017 22:17
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Has anyone here actually been to an American Jail? I realize that I'm opening myself up to an insane amount of criticism, but the jail "experience" is heartbreaking, difficult on your SOUL and just generally the worst thing that could possibly happen to you in your lifetime. I was only in jail for 5 days, and I almost killed myself. It's not funny like Orange is the new Black. You're stripped of all your clothes, your dignity, and people with guns and badges treat you like garbage 24/7. Other inmates threaten you for dumb poo poo like changing the tv channel. Your next-door neighbor prisoner has a crazy nosebleed that leaves blood everywhere and you have to clean it up. Guards constantly use their power to make you feel small and make you feel like vermin. How Is killing someone the RIGHT way, any worse than 40-60 years of that treatment?
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Feb 27, 2017 21:18
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Peachfart posted:Well, because when you are dead, you are dead. I doubt the people on death row would remain there if given the chance to take life in prison instead. I think 80% of them would choose death over lifetime imprisonment. Can we ask them? Has there ever been a poll?
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Feb 27, 2017 22:08
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Can I simultaneously be for total prison reform and also still support the death penalty? Everyone should have much shorter sentences. Three strikes is dumb. We need better policies that try to actually reform people instead of treating them like poo poo until they turn into poo poo. That's just obvious. But can we straight-up kill serial killers and child-molesters. Sure
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Feb 27, 2017 22:16
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Why Yes. Absolutely . They forfeited their human rights when they hurt someone else. I believe in the backwards golden rule. Don't do unto others any crap that you wouldn't want done to you? And people who murder and it's completely obvious and provable, sick people who are going to continue to be sick and we're all going to keep paying for their incarceration, just kill em? It's cheaper, more economical and in the long run, it's actually more humane than decades of Incarceration.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:52
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:So I've been looking for the purple rule since yours is very stupid. It seems to be "don't have sex." So since I want to have sex, I'll be breaking the opposite of the golden rule, so have your parents, have you considered killing them?  I know that my post was a bit rambling, but in a general context, at least it makes sense . I don't even know how to reply to this word-vomit because it's incomprehensible.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:05
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Orange Devil posted:What percentage of murders do you reckon have a completely obvious guilty party and who would you trust to accurately make that determination? I think that the burden of evidence is SO HIGH that 99% of convicted murderers definitely did it. That 1% doubt is what makes it so crazy. You'd rather let 100 guilty people go than imprison one innocent man.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:46
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stone cold posted:That's not how human rights work. This is basically the dumbest argument that I've ever read. When people are mean or evil to other people, when they're scary or violent. it's quite obvious, even though it may be difficult to put down in words. I don't believe that any "Drug" crimes are real crimes. I think that violent people are OBVIOUSLY violent lovely people and they should be the only ones in jail. But absolutely any person who hits another person is a crazy rear end in a top hat and they need some jail.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:41
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hakimashou posted:It's bad to have a society that punishes innocent people in any way for the crimes of others. My previous posts many pages back, were the unfortunate victims of sleep deprivation from 24/7 construction next-door and having a cold. I read them back and I sounded like a frickin' moron. My absolute apologies (and deepest embarrassment) --"Bad people are obviously bad etc"  Has anyone really made any point about the people that would rather go to an easy death (which we are apparently incapable of doing with morphine which is just hilariously stupid) than spend life in jail? Personally, I would rather be killed (the RIGHT way, with morphine) than spend more than...6 months in jail. Is that a human right? *edit* I meant to say that this post basically outlines my fundamentals in the quickest way possible DoggPickle fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Mar 8, 2017 |
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Mar 8, 2017 06:34
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N. Senada posted:It's cruel if the jail is some hellish cesspit. It is unlikely. I am a girl and WHITE, and went to jail in an affluent county for only 5 days, and the slave mentality that you are required to adopt within the first few hours is palpable and mentally damaging. I had a female guard tell me within the first day when I had to change jail clothes for some reason, that I should throw my first prison-wear into the "bin", and there were two bins next to each other, too high for me to see in, and one was round and looked recycley and one was rectangular and looked more like a trash area, but I didn't want to make the crazy lady angry by doing it wrong, and I said "which bin?" and she started screaming at me and degrading me that I was stupid and I didn't know what a "bin" was. She stomped over and grabbed my clothes and threw them in like I was a nitwit. It's obviously the round one. Like leave your dignity at the door! Let the dumbest people that couldn't get a real job take out their anger on you with no repercussions and just hang your head in shame and TAKE IT DAMMIT.That is the kind of poo poo they do to you immediately so that you know your place as idiot cattle that can't do anything correctly. On the second day, I was very close to getting beat up because I was on the "white" side of the Oz-looking area, and there were two TV's and I was sitting there reading a book, keeping my head down, and this chick asked if I CARED if she changed the channel. I barely looked up and said that I was reading and I didn't care (It was like soap operas or something). So she changed the channel and a bunch of other people got mad at me like I had given her permission. Some skanky meth bitches got up in my face until I talked them down in a fit of emergency charmingness. On the third day, the drug addict in the cell next to me was taken out during the night because she had a severe nose bleed and HOLY poo poo there was so much blood. And then they made me clean it up with a mop. No gloves. I did a pretty lovely job, but I had the out of only being there for a few days so I could afford to irritate the guards a little bit. They also took everyone's' blood to check for some disease that prisoners always get and I told them that I have weird low blood pressure and I tend to pass out when I get stuck with needles, and they still made me do it standing up and I got light-headed and semi-collapsed. If prisons dumped all the non-violent offenders and actually made them places to educate yourself and still treated people with human dignity, they would serve a purpose, but locking people up for insanely long sentences, like 5 years for a drug crime or 10 years for an accidental (but maybe with some fault) vehicular manslaughter is not going to make them better people or teach them a lesson. It just makes them horrible people who have to adopt this slave-mentality in order to live, and make friends with worse criminals and would do absolutely anything not to be berated or beat up or treated like poo poo. There is literally no point to it, other than keeping severely violent and messed-up people from hurting anyone else. I for one would ABSOLUTELY rather be dead than do that again, and I think you're overestimating people's will to live, If LIFE is a constant torment, or endless slavery. You don't need the humiliation and degradation to get a result. Just plain not being able to do things that you want, see your family or snuggle your pets, or to escape to another place and lay in the grass or see the sun, dumb stuff like that is really HARD. You don't have to add the cruelty and pissing and showering in front of others to make it worse. It really is kill-or-be-killed in there, and I only saw the softest POSSIBLE side. American prisons are cesspools of desperation and hate and racism and absolutely terrible day-to-day life. It's not just in the movies, folks. You're forced to adopt this alternate persona of forced strength with the other inmates and yet abject obedience to the masters. It's loving WEIRD and barbaric. We as a people need to decide what going to jail should actually mean. If you want to throw people in literal dungeons, to sit in their own filth and fight off the rats, but you did it for a WAY shorter time, I would actually be down for that. But this crazy, unending servitude torture is just useless bullshit that costs tons of money and makes real thieves out of people that stole ONE THING and got caught, makes wife beaters out of guys that got into a bar-fight, makes killers out of angry drunks, makes rapists out of confused anti-social dudes, and makes people unable to get a job for the rest of their lives with Felon on their record. That was quite a long rant, and I'm sorry, and it would be better served in a general "U.S. prison is stupid" thread, but I feel like it does apply when you're talking about the death penalty, because I think a lot more people would choose death if we could manage to do it properly..i.e. go to sleep and never wake up. What is WITH the over-complicated, idiotic drug cocktail anyways? Is it pharmaceutical influence? WTF is wrong with an overdose of opiates? It makes me cringe every time I see what they actually use.
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Mar 8, 2017 23:25
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Is death more lenient than 60 years in a bare cell with no light and nothing to read? Is death more lenient than a bright white cell with sound dampened walls and your guards never open their mouths for 60 years? Is it torture to scamper from your tiny cell to the mess hall and back again every day for 60 years so that one creepy guard doesn't mess with you? Then you can have your 8 straight hours of a baloney sandwich and reading the same 100 books in the entire library over and over and over again. How do we not have mass suicides every day in American Jail? My inclination is that your average prisoner is a pussy. NO, and YES, and it's obvious, because these are all tortures of one kind or another, and a quick death is not a torture. WE have to decide as a society what we actually want to ACCOMPLISH by jail sentences and other impositions like wealth-forfeiture and death. Do you WANT people to learn from their mistakes and get better? Or do you just want to send them into a hellhole where they forget who they are, lose all their job opportunities, relationships, savings, houses, and then send them back into the world like you've done something GOOD? 1. Stole money or some items.. Do some really lovely time, but short, like a matter of months depending on your crime 2. Assault, you hurt someone, you're a bastard, do many more months, but not years, try to teach them some life skills or a job or something if they need it. But realize that they are losing work income. possibly their HOME and their ability to get a decent job afterwards... That's a lot of stuff to toss at a dude while he's naked and literally fighting off random people and trying to manage his finances over the phone with his girlfriend. Jail is SO ANTI-USEFULL in every way! 3. Murder.. Well, screw this dude. If there is convincing, indisputable non-racist evidence, AND a confession, just kill them immediately. I really don't see how life in slavery-prison is a better deal. OH wait, the dudes on death row actually get BETTER general treatment than ordinary inmates. Why do you think they sit there appealing and whining for so long? There are at least 1 or 2 appeals that happen automatically without the inmate even agreeing to them. What kind of boring, horrible person would choose to sit in a single isolation cell for years instead of just dying? Sorry but I tend to think of those people with completely broken imaginations and awful selfish people in general.
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Mar 9, 2017 04:43
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hakimashou posted:I'm not sure she said it was "good," just better than permanent dehumanizing slavery in prison. Thank you. I totally admitted that I saw only the very softest possible underbelly of the situation. Oh hell I'm "privileged" so that makes my experience not worthy somehow? On the contrary, it makes me understand how absolutely horrifying regular prison life can be. It served NO PURPOSE. Everyone in there was depressed and angry and horrible and mean, and there was nothing to do except read a random selection of crappy old books and clean everything all the time and eat your baloney sandwich at 5 AM. I was lucky that it was during a freaky super-cold streak and we were allowed to sit in our own cells during the day and use the blankets, instead of having to wander in the common area and interact with the mostly drug-addicts and the occasional nasty violent bitch. It makes people lose their income and their homes. Unless you're super-rich or you have family-members that are willing to take care of your stuff, how in the hell are you supposed to do even 6 months without losing literally everything you have ever worked for in your life? I was lucky enough to have a boyfriend at the time, who could come over every day and feed my dogs. Otherwise, they would have starved (or I'd have gotten someone else to do it..lol.. but imagine that for 6 months, a year, 5 years!) The death penalty is actually a very nice way out, compared to living in indentured servitude and bowing to Massa for the rest of your life. I think a lot more people would choose it, if it was properly done. I would bet real money that actual 1 time or 2 time killers that aren't sociopaths would confess in an instant if they had the choice. What we really need to talk about, is what are we trying to ACCOMPLISH with jail time, or even with Death?
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Mar 9, 2017 20:13
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:You were in jail, not prison. hth. SO prison is worse? Or better? What exactly is your point? And is it basically proving mine?
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Mar 9, 2017 20:37
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hakimashou posted:I'm not content that the state will execute innocents, in the pursuit of justice. 100% Agree. There are specific differences that weren't pointed out so far about the "costs" of keeping someone in jail for life or giving them a swift death penalty. Obviously we are paying for the convicted to live all those years in relatively sparse housing with food etc.. but there is also the impact that the offender has on the other inmates for 30+ years (knowing that there is literally nothing he can do to make his life worse). There is the impact that he/she has on the guards. There's the humanitarian concern that life in prison is a worse fate than death. There's the possible recidivism or other learned criminal behaviors that might occur WITHIN the prison. The ongoing strained relationships with anyone outside that keeps pulling other people down and sucking their money and time for endless years. Can we admit that 99% of people on death row loving DID IT? I was laughing at an earlier post that suggested we have some kind of higher standard than "beyond all reasonable doubt", like "holy poo poo, he is TOTALLY SUPER-DUPER guilty", and I don't actually see why we can't add a separate standard of guilt into our court system, where the Jury can choose the GUILTY AS gently caress option. We're trusting juries to decide guilt or innocence. Can't we trust them to decide if someone's case is "whishy-washy but we're pretty sure it's true" or "he's so obviously a creepy murderer that we are literally scared to sit here".
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Mar 19, 2017 05:02
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LeJackal posted:No. Is there some statistic from an independent organization that can give us a fairly realistic view of the innocence/guilt of all people on death row? I would be happy to absorb it into my worldview.
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Mar 19, 2017 06:00
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LeJackal posted:No. SO what does that mean? There is no such independent agency? Or you think that the death penalty is inherently wrong and therefore wouldn't even share any relevant report?
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Mar 19, 2017 07:27
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Infinite Karma posted:i don't know if the standard is legally used anywhere, because it's not going to be achieved in most cases. With the nature of evidence and testimony, it's easy for there to be an unlikely (but still not insane) doubt. It's mostly philosophical wanking, because in any complex case, you're quickly in a gray area that makes the point moot. This is a great point. We already have two different standards for conviction in civil and criminal court. Why couldn't the death penalty require a third wording of the standard? "Substantial, unimpeachable, and overwhelming evidence of guilt". Or something along those lines. The tricky bit would be the idea that anyone who commits multiple murders is most likely suffering from some kind of mental condition, even if it's overwhelming apathy like a sociopath, and then it turns into an argument about whether we should attempt to "treat" these people or not.
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Mar 19, 2017 19:54
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Zesty Mordant posted:Even if, hypothetically, a criminal's 100% guilt could be ascertained, what would be gained by executing this person? *They will not re-offend *They will not "Theoretically" cost more money to house and feed *They will not be an emotional or financial drain on their friends and family for the next 30 odd years *They will never injure another prisoner or guard *You're creating a net gain in the average morality of the population (albeit .0000001%) *It's less horrifying (to some) than life in prison with no parole *They will not temp another prisoner or guard into any other illegal action *They deserve it *If there is an aggrieved party, they will get revenge/justice, (it's the same to me) *Assuming that the syst em is impartial and impeccably correct, it is a deterrent for others who might be on the fence about killing their wives/pregnant girlfriends etc. Nobody can or can't prove the actual deterrent effect because we've never had a system that is clearly impartial and correct, but if you're talking purely theory, those are my reasons why execution is useful. Some are undeniable truths, some are clearly impossible to prove at this or maybe any time, and some are matters of personal ethics and morality. This is just PURE thought experiment.
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Mar 19, 2017 22:33
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OwlFancier posted:Strictly you could achieve most of those in general by just killing people at random. Not really. You're not generally paying for the food and housing of a random person, or expecting a random person to commit crimes against others. Random killings certainly wouldn't influence people not to commit murder. A random person is not a net drain on their family and friends. Killing a random person wouldn't increase the morality of the total population, because by definition, they're random and therefore average. Killing a random person is also not better than the current alternative, letting them be, whereas it is possibly better than life in prison. And most of all, they don't deserve it. I don't see how your post makes any sense at all, except shrugging off the "future crimes and bad influence" bit.
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Mar 19, 2017 23:52
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OwlFancier posted:Well, people killed at random: Haha you had to say "might" deserve it and "if" they have aggrieved anyone. About 6 of those points are more likely to apply, which makes them more useful than random killings. If I say that I agree with you on the last bit, then I'm a sociopath, even though we absolutely need to cut down the birthrate at some point.
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Mar 20, 2017 00:45
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OwlFancier posted:Well the person being executed under the guise of criminal justice might not have aggrieved someone or deserve it either. Well the hypothetical that I was responding to, was 100% absolute guilt, so in that case, they have most definitely deserved it, or unless the person they killed had literally no friends or family, they have caused a grievance. It does change the fact, because all those things are more applicable to a murderer. More likely to reoffend, more likely to be a drain on society, more likely to be a bad influence. How many people can you screw up by proxy in 20-40 years? IDK a lot? People in prison are by and large dumbasses and susceptible to persuasion. Because all these things are more applicable to a murderer and not the "average" person, I really don't understand your leap of logic here. OT, I don't think we should kill random people, but we could really use a birth policy. It's not going to be in my lifetime that we kill the planet with our crazy amount of babies so I don't really care. Sociopath spotted.
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Mar 20, 2017 02:35
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