Lets talk about how fucked up and shitty the Death Penalty is

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Lets talk about how fucked up and shitty the Death Penalty is

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

DC Murderverse posted:

1). It's Expensive! Why, if they're in jail for less time, is it more expensive to put someone on death row? Court costs. Death penalty cases generally take longer and cost more than non-death penalty cases, and the appeals process increases the cost difference between the two.

I agree with the conclusion, but this seems like a horrible argument. The left should abandon it.

If the appeals are unnecessary, they should be dropped. If the appeals are necessary, they should be given to people who we're going to imprison for life.

As is, the argument is implying that you're OK with life-imprisonment for innocent people, because it saves you the expensive step of 'making sure they're guilty'

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:57

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

T8R posted:

The objection is "All executions carry a risk of executing innocent people, executing someone who is innocent is immoral, therefore all executions are immoral."

" I can imagine a perfect universe with a perfect court system that only executes guilty people" isn't an acceptable moral argument; and it certainly isn't a logical one. If you're fine with believing in morality that can only function in our imaginations, I'm not sure what to say.

Like twodot, I think there are good arguments against the death penalty.

But I find this one, in particular, to be pretty unconvincing.

Yes, it's immoral to execute innocent people. But it's also immoral to imprison them.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2017 04:13

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

ratbert90 posted:

The death penalty is lovely just because we as a society should be better than a murderer.

This also seems like a kind of weak argument. It only 'works' because people apply it selectively.

We should be better than murderers. But we should also be better than thieves. Or kidnappers.

The judicial process makes executions not-murder. Just like it makes fines into not-theft. And imprisonment into not-kidnapping.

(Again: There are good arguments. This one just seems weak; we wouldn't accept it if someone applied it to any other punishment. So it can't be our true reason for rejecting the death penalty)

# ¿ Mar 2, 2017 04:17

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

stone cold posted:

Why?

How does this distinction work?

Moreover, if you're doing it with revenge in mind, does that not count as malice?

How is murder not murder? You're gonna need to substantiate that assumption some more before you lay down what you think are absolutes.

In standard English, 'homicide' is any killing of a person. 'Murder' is an unlawful killing.

Executions, being lawful, are homicides. But they're not murder.

The only way you get 'executions are murder' is if you're being a bit poetic and denying the legitimacy of the US legal system. But, an illegitimate court's fines are theft. And its warrants amount to kidnapping. So, that argument doesn't lead to "end the death penalty" so much as, "end this court's ability to impose any and all sentences".

# ¿ Mar 2, 2017 05:46

falcon2424: May 2, 2005

WampaLord posted:

What a pedantic hair-splitting of rhetorical bullshit.

Not really.

If we're going 'gently caress the Court' -- and we should in some cases -- then I'm not 'against the death penalty'. I'm against the court having the ability to impose any penalty whatsoever. Everyone sentenced under such a court should get an immediate retrial, if not outright clemency.

It's kind of hosed up to look at totally illegitimate court (eg http://nypost.com/2014/02/23/film-details-teens-struggles-in-state-detention-in-payoff-scandal/ ) and pretend that the problem is the specifics of the punishment.

It's not.

We should oppose illegitimate courts if they're imposing the death penalty. We should oppose them if they're imposing life sentences. We should oppose them if they're "merely" imposing multi-year sentences.

falcon2424 fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Mar 2, 2017

# ¿ Mar 2, 2017 05:54

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